Fake amp business idea with modelling - Anybody want to build one?

deano

Hi,

Don't worry moderators! I am not looking to encourage anyone to break laws. I just want to know what people think about something.

Whilst I summon up courage to drill through my Crimson kit Telecaster body I wanted to post something that I have been mulling over for years now.

I’m not sure whether it needs to be in here or in the FX section but I’m sure it will be moved if I get it wrong!

It's probably not even not be relevant these days now that modelling and digital FX boxes are accepted almost universally.

Basically, I had the idea years ago of building a classic amp with all of the proper controls and dials, which fed into a modelling system on the inside. The difference being that the modelling only modeled the amp in question.

For example, consider a classic 1960’s Vox AC30 Top Boost.

The outside would look like that. A classic AC30 TB.

The inside would be a model of such an AC30 connected to a power amp and speaker. These would be flat frequency and response with the modeler adding the colour of the original AC30 power amp and Celestion Blue speaker.

It would model both the normal channel and the Top Boost channel, but with a more controllable master volume setup. Turning the dials would change the parameters, just like the olden days!

In short it looked and reacted like a 1960 AC30 with Blues in. It didn’t have any other amp models in there, so don’t go looking for a Fender or Marshall or anything else (even an AC15!!).

It would be cheaper than a proper AC30 TB and yet deliver the response. In my idea I would be able to produce the amps, but I suspect, in reality, the relevant amp companies like Vox would build them themselves or licence the design to a third-party company because obviously Vox own the rights to look like an AC30.

I’m just putting this out there because frankly I wonder if the time for such a product has now passed. That and the fact that – despite being an ex-Java developer, and current Systems Analyst – I have no idea how to create the modelling side of it. Nor do I want to learn now. Twenty-years ago I might, but not now. Added to the fact that the companies concerned might cause issues, I will leave it to others. In fact, if Vox produced such a thing I would probably buy one.

Does such a thing hold any merit for folks these days? Or are we now mature enough to realise that modelling need not be hidden away behind a fake mask?

If anyone out there wants to run with this, good luck! Just give me one of the first production models!

Roland

deano said:

... I wonder if the time for such a product has now passed ...

Regardless of opinions on modelling I think the time has passed. If you’re happy with modelling then there are several systems which produce a credible AC30, and can do other amps besides.

thermionic

Have you heard of the AC30VR?

heavyrocker

If someone’s going to buy a modelling amp it’s very likely that the flexibility side of it is high on their list of priorities, otherwise they would just buy an AC30.

olafgarten

I think modelling is the wrong solution, for something like this a solid state version of the amp would be a better idea, and that has sort of been done, although never really that well recently.

I think the main issue is that it's not much cheaper to produce and people will prefer the tube version if it's only a little bit more expensive. 

deano

thermionic said:

Have you heard of the AC30VR?

Yes, I think I agree with all of you. I appreciate the pointer to the AC30VR, but it was a wider idea than that, in that Marshall amps could look and model a famous Marshall (say a JCM800) at a fraction of the cost, or a Fender Super Reverb loo- and sound-alike, and so on.

I think it was an idea that might have had legs a decade ago, but not now. It feels like the right time to let it go. I just wanted to put it out there for comments, and if someone does want to take a punt - go for it.

guitartango

@deano I had the same thought a few years back, turning a Raspberry Pi or Tinker board  into a Kemplar like machine, either running Windows 10 or linux and wine. 

https://www.electrosmash.com/pedal-pi ; Now this is just a pedal , image if it had amps as well ?

olafgarten

guitartango said:

@deano I had the same thought a few years back, turning a Raspberry Pi or Tinker board  into a Kemplar like machine, either running Windows 10 or linux and wine. 

https://www.electrosmash.com/pedal-pi ; Now this is just a pedal , image if it had amps as well ?

I doubt the Pi is quick enough to do amp modelling, DSPs aren't usually that fast but they don't have to run an OS at the same time. 

PhilKing

Many years ago, amp guru John McIntyre built me this.  It is all valve and has 5 preamps, they are:

Clean 1 - Vox style
Clean 2 - Fender Style
Crunch - Marshall on edge of breakup
Lead 1 - Marshall with higher gain and MV
Lead 2 - Boogie style drive

There are 2 effects loops, one for the Cleans and one for the Leads.  It's completely valve based, with relay switching.  It was too expensive to make a production pre-amp though.  It's also pretty big and heavy!

EricTheWeary

Not the same thing but it reminded me about that GP article about a Beatles tribute who had a different dummy backline for each stage of the Fab Four career but the sounds were all POD. 

drwiddly

Didn't Marshall do something similar to the OP's idea a few years ago with their JMD amps? I know they did more than one model but they were all Marshalls IIRC.

thecolourbox

I vaguely recall the Vox AC30VR didn't really catch on, not least because it was a lot quieter, but also because it appeared to be the same model you got on the Valvetronix amps. Only on those, you got about 15 other models as well, and an FX loop, and they were cheaper.

And you could just replace the grill cloth for less money

ICBM

The AC30VR isn't a modeller - it's an analogue solid-state amp with a valve in it. The reason it's quiet and a bit weak-sounding is because the speakers are crap... the ubiquitous Celestion Seventy/80s. I ran one through a 2xV30 cab and it was astonishingly better, so I suspect it would be really quite good with a pair of Blues, although that would just about double the cost of it.

The Marshall JMD-1 is a digital modelling-preamp, valve-power-amp hybrid, that only models Marshalls and also sounds pretty good, but I've heard of reliability issues with them (though not seen any myself). The Fender Super Champ XD is similar - digital preamp, valve power amp.

HAL9000

Amps like the Orange Crush Pro series (sounds distinctly Orange), and the Roland Blues Cubes (a bit Tweed, a bit Junior) are decent quality SS amps that sound like I've thing only. Admittedly the Orange is analogue rather than a modeller but the basic idea is there.

deano

My point is that you could buy something that looked like your favourite amp, whether a Vox Ac series, a late60's Hendrix Marshall, an SRV Fender Super, a Larry Carlton Mesa or what have you, looking like one and sounding one.

it is irrelevant because it is an idea past its sell but date. But that was the original idea.

ICBM

deano said:

My point is that you could buy something that looked like your favourite amp, whether a Vox Ac series, a late60's Hendrix Marshall, an SRV Fender Super, a Larry Carlton Mesa or what have you, looking like one and sounding one.

it is irrelevant because it is an idea past its sell but date. But that was the original idea.

I don't think it is - in fact it could become much less out of date if valves become harder to buy - or make, due to environmental legislation... or simply uneconomical. It still rather surprises me that they aren't already.

That does depend on buyers still wanting conventional guitar amps after that point though.

deano

ICBM said:

deano said:

My point is that you could buy something that looked like your favourite amp, whether a Vox Ac series, a late60's Hendrix Marshall, an SRV Fender Super, a Larry Carlton Mesa or what have you, looking like one and sounding one.

it is irrelevant because it is an idea past its sell but date. But that was the original idea.

I don't think it is - in fact it could become much less out of date if valves become harder to buy - or make, due to environmental legislation... or simply uneconomical. It still rather surprises me that they aren't already.

That does depend on buyers still wanting conventional guitar amps after that point though.

I must admit the environmental issue was part of my original thinking those many years ago.

But I was never able to run with it. If anyone can, good luck. Just give me a pick!

Dominic

Even if there was a market I think the issue would be putting your " BESA MOOGIE " into a Mesa Boogie lookylikey cabinet would get you comfortably sued therefore the only way is in conjunction with the original copyright holder and I'm sure they wouldn't want to do it because even if it was half decent sounding it would eclipse their market for the real thing.
 Would Ferrari want to supply a body shell for a VW ?( okay I know Bentley do )

ICBM

Dominic said:

Even if there was a market I think the issue would be putting your " BESA MOOGIE " into a Mesa Boogie lookylikey cabinet would get you comfortably sued therefore the only way is in conjunction with the original copyright holder and I'm sure they wouldn't want to do it because even if it was half decent sounding it would eclipse their market for the real thing.

Only if you think the digital ones would sound as good as the real valve versions.

Most of the big companies already make modellers alongside their valve amps - admittedly intentionally cheaper ranges.

For me one of the issues is exactly that - it’s rare to find a digital amp, or an analogue solid-state one, with the build quality of a good valve amp... because it would cost almost as much and then no-one would buy it.

But that will eventually change - there are already high-end solid-state and digital amps, both ones that model specific valve amps (Kemper) and ones that don’t (Quilter), and ones somewhere in the middle (Yamaha).

So it wouldn’t surprise me if one of the big companies does do this exact concept. Marshall came fairly close with the JMD, although still with a valve power amp.

p90fool

Having flirted with digital modelling for the last 10 years or so right up to what is currently regarded as state of the art, I would say that nobody is anywhere near accurately modelling the experience and response of an AC30 on the edge of self destruction, so your point is moot. 

ICBM

p90fool said:

Having flirted with digital modelling for the last 10 years or so right up to what is currently regarded as state of the art, I would say that nobody is anywhere near accurately modelling the experience and response of an AC30 on the edge of self destruction, so your point is moot. 

That’s true, but is why my earlier question as to whether anyone will still want that in the future matters. It’s easy for us as middle-aged people who grew up with classic rock to say they will, but in 20-30 years, are you sure?

There are already a lot of younger players who have never used a valve amp, and probably quite a few who have never used an amp, only a computer set-up or headphones. Once IEMs and low stage volume becomes the norm, maybe the sound of a cranked AC30 will be simply irrelevant.

(Personally, I’ve never used IEMs and I hate playing through headphones...)