Hifi question - subwoofer

viz

Phil_aka_Pip said:

viz said:

Nice, and I’ve been tossing up valve vs transistor; but I really need 500w or more so will probably go for transistor power amp, I think. 

Not a large number of those on the market AFAIK. Why not just use more efficient speakers then you don't need to shove such large amounts of current?

You might like Martin Logan Electrostatics. I was very impressed when I heard them. they were being driven by a power stage that had 4 big (spelt HUGE) valves in each monoblock, they were the size of beer bottles and had a deadly looking anode cap. EDIT they might have been PL504s

I have my eye on some awesome transistor amps, they’ll do the trick

Gagaryn

Phil_aka_Pip said:

viz said:

prowla said:

If it's got a subwoofer it ain't a hi-fi.

Purist!

Thing is, my speakers sound a teeny bit lighter than what I’m used to, even without spikes - and what with quite a large room and oak flooring, I think it will just benefit from a tiny bit of warming at the deep end. And the speakers struggle to cope with reproducing 64’ organ pipes. Having said that, I’m not sure how a sub will manage to cope with that any better!

Hmmm ... why not just get better amplifier & speakers than spending more money on a sub?

He's right you know.

I tried to do what you are trying to do, my old amp sounded light which is why I tried the sub (Velodyne) which I have for AV. Although it seems to work, immediately sounded fuller, had depth etc, the more I listened the more obvious it was that the sub was not quite in phase with the speakers. Ended up buying a better Amp (Arcam) and the issue disappeared - the speakers that previously seemed to lack bass came to life!

BTW - you may find the issue is your room. When my ex insisted we get rid of carpets it fucked with the acoustics of my living room. :-( 

viz

Yep, well I do agree, the amp is definitely underpowered, but the sub’s going to help too, I’m sure of it. The room definitely contributes to the issue. Which arcam amp did you get?

Gagaryn

A19 - fine for what is a reasonably small room, only 50 watts.

octatonic

I have used a sub in the past, but current not and enjoying the music more.

Wth a good set of floor standers a sub is probably not needed.
Setup can be trick in reflective, boxy rooms.

Phil_aka_Pip

@Viz I get it that you've bought a sub and want it to work, but most of us are agreed it either is not the best solution or it isn't a solution at all. Think on mate.

Matt_McG

One other thing to consider is:

1. going active (i.e. speakers with active crossovers)

2. room correction software/hardware

I went the latter route. I have a biggish set of floorstanders (8" drivers), driven by a good quality Quad solid state amp.* On paper, that setup is only flat down to about 40Hz.** The speakers in question use downward firing ports to produce the impression of more bass/weight. When I measured them, with a proper microphone and software, I found that they actually go quite a bit lower than 40Hz without much drop-off, but there were a fair number of odd peaks and reflections in my room. A couple of peaks around 40 and 60hz, and a whacking great hole around 150-175Hz.

I use MiniDSP hardware and open source software, and it really made a huge difference.

Once I got the basic response in the room pretty flat (for the main listening position), I found I could turn the amp and speakers up more without boomy resonance, and without it sounding obtrusive (in a way that might annoy neighbours). I also put a big rug in to cover up the hardwood floor in front of the speakers. The response is still not completely flat across the entire range of the speaker -- I think if you measure in most rooms you might be surprised just how far away from ideal you are -- but it's noticeably better.

At some point I'd like to try removing the crossovers and going active there (which I can do with the existing hardware) and combining room correction with an active crossover to get the best overall response.

* recapped by me, so I know it's in good nick.
** urged by my wife, I tried replacing them with a set of standmounts that were the top recommended budget-ish option from all the hifi mags. I immediately sent them back, as it sounded like something was wrong, and I was listening through a 1970s transistor radio. The on paper bass response was about the same, but in actual practice, there was no comparison. 

viz

Hm. There is a lot to this, evidently! Well i will have a listen this evening and let you know. The sub has 1 driver per channel and they’re the same type as on the speakers, so I think it will sound fine. 

viz

Got it thanks for all your advice, it was really interesting to get all your comments. Turns out the subwoofer is incredibly fast but also lovely and warm and adds exactly what I felt was missing from my floorstanders. I’ve even been able to put the floorstanders back on spikes - I’d had to bed them on the floor before to give enough bass for the room but now they’re back up again and sounding sweet and tinselly, there’s no mush now, just gorgeous music. Iron Maiden has never sounded so awesome

Phil_aka_Pip

@viz go on admit it you're really into dub reggae aren't you

Sporky

I reckon brostep. 

viz

Never heard of either of them!

Rocker

prowla said:

If it's got a subwoofer it ain't a hi-fi.

Not 100% true my friend. A pair of good stand mount speakers plus a REL sub woofer, if it is well setup, will give you a top quality sound. Without totally dominating the room.

richardhomer

Rocker said:

prowla said:

If it's got a subwoofer it ain't a hi-fi.

Not 100% true my friend. A pair of good stand mount speakers plus a REL sub woofer, if it is well setup, will give you a top quality sound. Without totally dominating the room.

And my Linn ‘bass augmentation speaker’ sounds superb when set up properly - adding real weight and extension without affecting transparency or smearing timing.

Sporky

You might as well say it's not hifi if it has tweeters, or woofers.

Point source speakers only, right?

Gagaryn

Yeah, hifi is the ultimate realm of elitists and snake oil salesmen. I may have a fiddle with integrating my sub into my system again. A sub can add that subtle depth that you sense more than hear and don't really notice until it's muted.

When I did have mine integrated I was surprised at the types of music it enhanced most - I'd assumed it would be reggae and stuff like that - tried U-Roy and Congos records and they are already recorded with prominent bass so the difference wasn't dramatic. I really noticed the difference in mellower stuff - pianos on Joni Mitchell "Blue" sounded great.

viz

For me it’s classical. Even violins sound more realistic! Or at least they seem to
No idea why. 

Sporky

About two weeks ago I was commissioning a system for a students' union  - pretty small venue in the basement.

Six 15-inch mains, two twin-18-inch subs.

We made a preset with and without subs; if they're off then the high pass for the mains drops from 110Hz to 65Hz.

On some material you really couldn't hear the difference; on other things it was really, really obvious. And with it wound up enough we got complaints from the second floor, along with one "what were you playing a couple of minutes ago" from the next building along.

Now I know that commercial audio isn't hifi, but a well integrated sub can do remarkable things for music.