Devi Ever seems to be in a bad place...

Ben8010

I never even knew Devi was trans. Didn't have any sympathy then and don't have any now.

If you're gonna be successful you need to be accountable no matter what you are.

octatonic

tekbow said:

that dude's stuff either, as in JHS either, who is a dude. Also forgot the apostrophe denoting possession, "the stuff of the dude".

I also referred to Devi as "she" literally the sentence before.

My apologies- I misread your intention.

Grumpyrocker

I have sympathy. Lass is clearly going through a terrible time with mental health issues.

And while I've no sympathy for mistreating customers, I have plenty for any human being going through mental hardship. 

digitalscream

Grumpyrocker said:

I have sympathy. Lass is clearly going through a terrible time with mental health issues.

And while I've no sympathy for mistreating customers, I have plenty for any human being going through mental hardship. 

I'm usually the same way, but...in her case I wonder if it's a genuine mental health problem, or simply the stress of the situation that she's put herself in by taking money from people to make them products, spending it on something other than fulfilling those orders, then rinse-and-repeat using the next lot of money to pay those back, over and over.

I'm not minimising the impact that mental health issues have, I just wonder whether that's really what's at play here. This is what, the fourth time she's screwed people over by taking their money in return for (mostly) nothing? The fifth?

I have a number of family members with real mental illnesses, and honestly...her behaviour seems more like somebody who uses it as an excuse and a get-out-of-jail-free card (with some regularity), which minimises the plight of people with genuine problems. And that makes me angrier.

Funkfingers

I know nothing of Devi Ever FX. 

Given the cyclical nature of the business part of this story, I am surprised that punters continue to front up money for promised products that might never come into existence. Does the company change its name every time?

mart

Funkfingers said:

I know nothing of Devi Ever FX. 

Given the cyclical nature of the business part of this story, I am surprised that punters continue to front up money for promised products that might never come into existence. Does the company change its name every time?

No. It's almost as if people who spend £00s on drive pedals aren't always terribly rational. 

juansolo

mart said:

Funkfingers said:

I know nothing of Devi Ever FX. 

Given the cyclical nature of the business part of this story, I am surprised that punters continue to front up money for promised products that might never come into existence. Does the company change its name every time?

No. It's almost as if people who spend £00s on drive pedals aren't always terribly rational. 

Best Post Ever.

TimmyO

Whatever the source of her stresses and mental strains (inherent or external) she seems to be the only person routinely ripping people off then flaking on commitments as a result. 

joetele

digitalscream said:

Grumpyrocker said:

I have sympathy. Lass is clearly going through a terrible time with mental health issues.

And while I've no sympathy for mistreating customers, I have plenty for any human being going through mental hardship. 

I'm usually the same way, but...in her case I wonder if it's a genuine mental health problem, or simply the stress of the situation that she's put herself in by taking money from people to make them products, spending it on something other than fulfilling those orders, then rinse-and-repeat using the next lot of money to pay those back, over and over.

I'm not minimising the impact that mental health issues have, I just wonder whether that's really what's at play here. This is what, the fourth time she's screwed people over by taking their money in return for (mostly) nothing? The fifth?

I have a number of family members with real mental illnesses, and honestly...her behaviour seems more like somebody who uses it as an excuse and a get-out-of-jail-free card (with some regularity), which minimises the plight of people with genuine problems. And that makes me angrier.

Not wanting to drill down into it too far but sometimes this cyclical behaviour is a common symptom of mental health issues. It doesn't excuse all of her conduct / behaviour of course - she should really have sought help at an earlier stage, but it would certainly be happening in the background / as part of all of the events. I'm also fairly sure that her anti-trans experience might have closed a few business doors as well as damaging her mental health further - but it doesn't necessarily excuse some of what's apparently happened with various business endeavours. It's very easy to dismiss claims of anti-trans abuse etc, especially if it sometimes appears that it's used as an excuse - but as a straight white male I cannot possibly speculate or pretend to understand what a trans person goes through each day, especially in an industry which is still presumably fairly male-orientated. 

Ultimately, nobody here knows exactly what's happened on either side, so it's all going to be speculation on our parts. 

digitalscream

joetele said:

but as a straight white male I cannot possibly speculate or pretend to understand what a trans person goes through each day, especially in an industry which is still presumably fairly male-orientated. 

I personally think this is a fallacy, and it comes up fairly often. It's not possible to experience it, but it's certainly possible to understand it.

Ben8010

.

Gagaryn

Grumpyrocker said:

I have sympathy. Lass is clearly going through a terrible time with mental health issues.

And while I've no sympathy for mistreating customers, I have plenty for any human being going through mental hardship. 

digitalscream said:

Same old shit with her.

1 - Start a business she doesn't know how to run, building something she doesn't know how to build, with skills she doesn't possess.

2 - Take money from loads of people based on the promises of somehow making something useful from the above.

3 - Use that money partly to pay off debts from her previous failed promises, but mostly on subsidising her lifestyle.

4 - Borrow more money to subsidise the lifestyle.

5 - Hit rock bottom, claim mental health issues (maybe there's a real diagnosis, maybe it's just the usual "I'm soooo depressed" thing from her generation, I have no idea).

6 - Blame everything on people hating trans folk, thus making those people less human and less deserving of being paid back.

7 - Take a break for a little while, go back to step #1.

I have zero sympathy. That's not because she's trans, or because she may or may not have genuine mental health issues. It's because she repeatedly and wilfully does this to people over and over again with zero consequences other than having to write an apology/blame-deflection post every couple of years.

She needs to get a job to support her lifestyle, pay back her debts the way any of the rest of us would, and stop screwing people over to try to get ahead in some Del Boy-esque scheme. Equally, her marks need to stop falling for it.

Perhaps not the specifics i.e. pedal building, but in general these kinds of behaviours are not uncommon in people suffering from mental health issues.

Claiming not to have any sympathy for people with mental health issues on the basis that those issues have led to negative  consequences both for them and for others shows a lack of understanding about mental health issues. To spell it out - amongst other things mental health issues often negate one's abilitys to make sound judgments. And sadly, without support people often make the same mistakes over and over.

I do agree with your last point though, she does not need people encouraging her to continue in the pedal business. She needs help to realise that doing the same thing over and over again is not going to make her life better and will have negative consequences for others too. She clearly is not able to see that for herself which leads me to believe that she has real issues and is sadly not getting the support she needs

digitalscream said:

Grumpyrocker said:

I have sympathy. Lass is clearly going through a terrible time with mental health issues.

And while I've no sympathy for mistreating customers, I have plenty for any human being going through mental hardship. 

I'm usually the same way, but...in her case I wonder if it's a genuine mental health problem, or simply the stress of the situation that she's put herself in by taking money from people to make them products, spending it on something other than fulfilling those orders, then rinse-and-repeat using the next lot of money to pay those back, over and over.

I'm not minimising the impact that mental health issues have, I just wonder whether that's really what's at play here. This is what, the fourth time she's screwed people over by taking their money in return for (mostly) nothing? The fifth?

I have a number of family members with real mental illnesses, and honestly...her behaviour seems more like somebody who uses it as an excuse and a get-out-of-jail-free card (with some regularity), which minimises the plight of people with genuine problems. And that makes me angrier.

This reminds me of the old Brasseye sketch about helping people with good AIDS and shunning those with bad AIDS. 

Just because her actions are different from your loved ones actions does not mean that the mental health isssues are any less real - but could indicate the level of support offered to the individuals is very different. 

And I don't think you have any reason to be feeling any anger about this, maybe you should ask yourself why you have that reaction.

digitalscream

Gagaryn said:

digitalscream said:

Grumpyrocker said:

I have sympathy. Lass is clearly going through a terrible time with mental health issues.

And while I've no sympathy for mistreating customers, I have plenty for any human being going through mental hardship. 

I'm usually the same way, but...in her case I wonder if it's a genuine mental health problem, or simply the stress of the situation that she's put herself in by taking money from people to make them products, spending it on something other than fulfilling those orders, then rinse-and-repeat using the next lot of money to pay those back, over and over.

I'm not minimising the impact that mental health issues have, I just wonder whether that's really what's at play here. This is what, the fourth time she's screwed people over by taking their money in return for (mostly) nothing? The fifth?

I have a number of family members with real mental illnesses, and honestly...her behaviour seems more like somebody who uses it as an excuse and a get-out-of-jail-free card (with some regularity), which minimises the plight of people with genuine problems. And that makes me angrier.

This reminds me of the old Brasseye sketch about helping people with good AIDS and shunning those with bad AIDS. 

Just because her actions are different from your loved ones actions does not mean that the mental health isssues are any less real - but could indicate the level of support offered to the individuals is very different. 

Ah yes, condescension. If in doubt, eh?

You actually have no idea what my experience with mental health issues is (for various reasons, I've seen a lot of variations on the theme, and very little of it makes it onto here). Equally, I've seen an awful lot of people who claim to have "mental health problems" when the reality is that they've just repeatedly put themselves in shit situations through being selfish assholes and they don't like it.

Apart from anything, Devi has had a lot of offers of help, and consistently rejected them over at least a decade. Yes, I'm aware that's behaviour that can be caused by mental illness, but over that period of time...either she can't be helped, or she actively avoids it for another reason.

Then you have the fact that she's never shown any kind of remorse for having screwed people over; "sorry" or "I hate that I've let you all down" isn't a feature of the posts she makes once she's got to the point where she needs to hit the reset button on her finances, whereas it would (likely) be if she were genuinely having mental health problems which caused this...in fact, it's that guilt which would trigger the problems in the first place.

What you get instead is blame - on everybody else.

Have you seen her game development, that she used to persuade people to give her money? She drew some crappy pixel-art screenshots, convinced people she was making a cool game, took money and then...built absolutely nothing. That's not "I had trouble because of mental illness". It's "give me money because I want it and don't want to work for it". And what about the crowdfunding to support her lifestyle, where she said that outright? Just about the only thing she's ever done where she genuinely gave people what they paid for was her brief stint in webcam porn.

Gagaryn said:

And I don't think you have any reason to be feeling any anger about this, maybe you should ask yourself why you have that reaction.

I'm 100% convinced she's just a bullshit con artist who's tried to build a cult of personality around herself, having taken all of her behaviour and actions over the years as a whole. The fact that she's claiming mental illness (as well as blaming the entire world for being anti-trans) makes me angry in just the same way as people making false sexual assault allegations (thus minimising the plight of those who have genuine claims) makes me angry; it's taking advantage of other people's problems for her own ends.

octatonic

digitalscream said:

I'm 100% convinced she's just a bullshit con artist who's tried to build a cult of personality around herself, having taken all of her behaviour and actions over the years as a whole. The fact that she's claiming mental illness (as well as blaming the entire world for being anti-trans) makes me angry in just the same way as people making false sexual assault allegations (thus minimising the plight of those who have genuine claims) makes me angry; it's taking advantage of other people's problems for her own ends.

This is basically my position on it too, although I'm only 90% convinced.

Grumpyrocker

Bravo Gagaryn, some great posts there.

joetele

digitalscream said:

joetele said:

but as a straight white male I cannot possibly speculate or pretend to understand what a trans person goes through each day, especially in an industry which is still presumably fairly male-orientated. 

I personally think this is a fallacy, and it comes up fairly often. It's not possible to experience it, but it's certainly possible to understand it.

I think we can certainly try and understand it, sure - I just mean our understanding will still be from the perspective of someone who isn't trans, so there's always going to be some kind of disconnect or bit that we can't quite appreciate. 

Ben8010 said:

joetele said:

 but as a straight white male I cannot possibly speculate or pretend to understand what a trans person goes through each day, especially in an industry which is still presumably fairly male-orientated. 

What's skin colour got to do with it?

Nothing in this case - but I'd probably have better experience and therefore understanding of prejudice if I wasn't a straight white male. Probably just on autopilot typing that out to be honest. 

Reading what's been posted over the whole thread, I'm probably in the 80 - 90% convinced of potential con artist status too. And as @digitalscream says - if it's falsely claiming the blame lies with mental health issues and anti-trans sentiments, then that's as bad as anything else she's doing and sends the wrong messages about people with genuine problems. 

Gagaryn

I'll admit I have only the vaguest understanding of her history - I've read bits and pieces over the years but you lot clearly know much more about her than I do.

But there are easier way's to make money than by deliberatly and publicly ripping people off. The single fact that she seems to repeatedly do this leads me to believe that she does have mental health problems - it seems like a very complicated way of getting a few quid otherwise.

And seeing one's self as a victim and that the whole world is against you is not uncommon in those with some mental health problems. As can be lack of obvious remorse. And blaming others for their predicament - however clear it may be to outsiders that the problems are entirely self  made.

Anyway, my point is just that these things are seldom as clear cut as they seem. Mental health issues can be complex and patterns of behaviour don't always neatly fit into moulds. 

steer

I think I will buy a Boss DS-1 instead. 

digitalscream

joetele said:

digitalscream said:

joetele said:

but as a straight white male I cannot possibly speculate or pretend to understand what a trans person goes through each day, especially in an industry which is still presumably fairly male-orientated. 

I personally think this is a fallacy, and it comes up fairly often. It's not possible to experience it, but it's certainly possible to understand it.

I think we can certainly try and understand it, sure - I just mean our understanding will still be from the perspective of someone who isn't trans, so there's always going to be some kind of disconnect or bit that we can't quite appreciate. 

See, the problem with that position is that, taken to its logical conclusion (which is the usual way it's used), it says "You can't have any opinions or thoughts on our group if you're not in our group". This is a great way to invalidate any disliked opinions, but it's no way to make progress.

When it comes to mental health issues, for example, it invalidates every psychiatrist out there - you're not allowed to practice psychiatric medicine if you suffer from psychiatric problems - and effectively says "You can only treat it if you've got it", which is blatantly stupid.

(for clarity, I'm not saying you're stupid...I just have a real problem with this particular position )

joetele

digitalscream said:

joetele said:

digitalscream said:

joetele said:

but as a straight white male I cannot possibly speculate or pretend to understand what a trans person goes through each day, especially in an industry which is still presumably fairly male-orientated. 

I personally think this is a fallacy, and it comes up fairly often. It's not possible to experience it, but it's certainly possible to understand it.

I think we can certainly try and understand it, sure - I just mean our understanding will still be from the perspective of someone who isn't trans, so there's always going to be some kind of disconnect or bit that we can't quite appreciate. 

See, the problem with that position is that, taken to its logical conclusion (which is the usual way it's used), it says "You can't have any opinions or thoughts on our group if you're not in our group". This is a great way to invalidate any disliked opinions, but it's no way to make progress.

When it comes to mental health issues, for example, it invalidates every psychiatrist out there - you're not allowed to practice psychiatric medicine if you suffer from psychiatric problems - and effectively says "You can only treat it if you've got it", which is blatantly stupid.

(for clarity, I'm not saying you're stupid...I just have a real problem with this particular position )

I appreciate what you're saying, dude - I'm not saying we can't understand or can't have opinions on the matter - nothing here is mutually exclusive. I'm only really trying to preface my own ignorance   

With my diabetes, I've almost 100% been treated over the years by those who don't have diabetes - and it doesn't invalidate their opinion or treatment. Although SOMETIMES I'd love them to actually have experienced what it's like at different blood sugars....