Anderton's Vertex video

NelsonP

Heartfeltdawn said:

Robben Ford's bought all 40. 

I heard that he's given one each to Bonamassa and Landau in recognition of their 'contribution to popular music'. We are awaiting announcements on the other 38, although I believe that Keith Richards, the Edge and Rob Chapman are hot contenders.

The entertainment continues over at TGP:
"Ironically that's the emptiest point ever, repeated ad nauseam through the thread by people like you who are basically all spouting the same things over and over again."

and

"Do you always talk to people this way?
Its cute that your inflated self-importance can sit you so high above everyone.
Do they all look like ants from that high horse?"

meltedbuzzbox

octatonic said:

octatonic said:

RMJ said:

I'm amazed that have shifted 40 units so far. Who is buying them? If you know about pedals surely you have heard about Vertex and are unlikely to buy. And if you dont know much about pedals why are you spunking 150+ without doing some research? 

It happens.

Not everyone researches their purchases.
Some people walk in and buy sports cars, or houses without doing a lot of research.

probably not at Andertons though.

To be honest I'd try a vertex pedal if I saw one in a shop and I would buy it if it sounds good

Octafish

benmurray85 said:

juansolo said:

BBBlues said:

Maxx77 said:

can't understand this
" Is he the 1st guy to do this? No. Will he be the last guy to do this? I doubt it. "

Agreed. It's one thing to tweak a tube screamer circuit. It's another to literally buy a pre-existing product, such as BBE wah's, and goop them! Has anyone else done that?

Freakish Blues comes instantly to mind.

Another brand that Andertons stocked (albeit quite a few years ago now) 

They still have their review demo up - £165 - "one of the best blues pedals I've heard"  

fields5069

fftc said:

Some folk really do have a great line in being outraged!

So the Vertex guy is a dick. OK, don't buy his pedals. Did he order bombs to be dropped on a hospital? No, so a sense of perspective might be in order.
Anyone who might boycott Andertons for anything other than a Vertex pedal purchase was probably just looking for an excuse anyway.

Nope, I think the correct perspective has been applied in most cases here to be honest.

It tells me what I need to know about the establishment. I wouldn't return to a restaurant that served me a burger from the McDonalds up the street because I'd only have the salmon this time. That's just odd.

UnclePsychosis

dindude said:

OK let's assume for a moment that Lee knew nothing about Vertex scandal, despite employing 100 people whom many of which will be guitarists.

Lee's a savvy businessman and if I were him I'd be fucking furious at Mason. i.e. You (Mason) sat on screen and told me how much Landau loved your pedals but forgot to tell me that he wrote you a letter saying that he wouldn't touch you with a barge pole and offered to refund out of is own money he felt so strongly! Not content with ruining your own reputation and business you now want to ruin mine?

The only cause for action here is "thank you internet for pointing out something I didn't know, I won't be dealing with or stocking Vertex from here on in".

Lee's support for Vertex after knowing about it is what will define this episode.

-this is what amazes me about this whole thing. 

Even if you accept that Andertons didn't know about Vertex (which frankly I refuse to believe---it's just too improbable) how the hell Lee Anderton can say that he's happy to give Mason another chance after Mason has just very publically told him fib after fib after fib straight to his face is quite something. I don't get it. 

peteri

UnclePsychosis said:

dindude said:

OK let's assume for a moment that Lee knew nothing about Vertex scandal, despite employing 100 people whom many of which will be guitarists.

Lee's a savvy businessman and if I were him I'd be fucking furious at Mason. i.e. You (Mason) sat on screen and told me how much Landau loved your pedals but forgot to tell me that he wrote you a letter saying that he wouldn't touch you with a barge pole and offered to refund out of is own money he felt so strongly! Not content with ruining your own reputation and business you now want to ruin mine?

The only cause for action here is "thank you internet for pointing out something I didn't know, I won't be dealing with or stocking Vertex from here on in".

Lee's support for Vertex after knowing about it is what will define this episode.

-this is what amazes me about this whole thing. 

Even if you accept that Andertons didn't know about Vertex (which frankly I refuse to believe---it's just too improbable) how the hell Lee Anderton can say that he's happy to give Mason another chance after Mason has just very publically told him fib after fib after fib straight to his face is quite something. I don't get it. 

I guess this is my point, Lee is obviously successful and canny in many ways - but saying 'sorry I messed up, I'll change direction' doesn't always seem to come easy

pintspiller

Octafish said:

benmurray85 said:

juansolo said:

BBBlues said:

Maxx77 said:

can't understand this
" Is he the 1st guy to do this? No. Will he be the last guy to do this? I doubt it. "

Agreed. It's one thing to tweak a tube screamer circuit. It's another to literally buy a pre-existing product, such as BBE wah's, and goop them! Has anyone else done that?

Freakish Blues comes instantly to mind.

Another brand that Andertons stocked (albeit quite a few years ago now) 

They still have their review demo up - £165 - "one of the best blues pedals I've heard"  

They're trying to sell it, they won't say it's bad even if it is.

RaymondLin

peteri said:

UnclePsychosis said:

dindude said:

OK let's assume for a moment that Lee knew nothing about Vertex scandal, despite employing 100 people whom many of which will be guitarists.

Lee's a savvy businessman and if I were him I'd be fucking furious at Mason. i.e. You (Mason) sat on screen and told me how much Landau loved your pedals but forgot to tell me that he wrote you a letter saying that he wouldn't touch you with a barge pole and offered to refund out of is own money he felt so strongly! Not content with ruining your own reputation and business you now want to ruin mine?

The only cause for action here is "thank you internet for pointing out something I didn't know, I won't be dealing with or stocking Vertex from here on in".

Lee's support for Vertex after knowing about it is what will define this episode.

-this is what amazes me about this whole thing. 

Even if you accept that Andertons didn't know about Vertex (which frankly I refuse to believe---it's just too improbable) how the hell Lee Anderton can say that he's happy to give Mason another chance after Mason has just very publically told him fib after fib after fib straight to his face is quite something. I don't get it. 

I guess this is my point, Lee is obviously successful and canny in many ways - but saying 'sorry I messed up, I'll change direction' doesn't always seem to come easy

That’s often the acid test on a person, any persons’s integrity, honesty and character.  It takes real balls to admit you are wrong and I have no problem people making mistakes but when it is pointed out to them, the right thing is to admit it and make amends.  Double down on the lie is where I am done with that person. 

deano

I wonder if Lee Anderton is making the point that he won't be bullied by Internet commentators. I agree with that attitude completely.

I suspect that once the existing stock of Vertex pedals has been sold they wont get any more in, and it wouldn't surprise me if in a few months time, when all the heat has died down, that particular video will quietly be taken down.

To do that now will mean that Lee will appear to have been bullied into it, and he doesn't strike me as someone who lets himself be bullied.

Of course that will not please the bullies because they want to be seen as "winning". But in the end, it is probably the right way to fix this in that the chap will not have a long term future with Anderton's and he won't be able to rely on that video for advertising, but by the same token the Internet commentators will not have what they want, which is for Anderton's to stop showing it now and to publicly condemn this man.

I reckon you won't see the video on Anderton's official channel within the year, nor will you be able to buy a Vertex pedal after they have been offloaded. In five years time nobody will (a) remember or (b) care that for a very brief time Anderton's carried this pedal and had a video about them on YouTube.

I have no axe to grind in this matter. I rarely buy pedals and even then they are usually cheaper ones. I do wonder why this man hasn't been prosecuted or sued, especially in a society as litigious as the United States. I would never spend more than £50 on a single effect pedal, and I confess to being genuinely puzzled why anyone would do so, but it's a free country and people can buy what they like. I have to admit to laughing out loud when someone posted that one of the things this man is alleged to have done is to take a cheap pedal, pull the original makers name off, put his own on, and sell it for a huge markup. Where is the crime? The original maker got their money in full, and the buyer of the "fake" pedal got what they wanted - a pedal that cost hundreds of dollars. They must have liked what they heard otherwise why buy the pedal? But I fail to see what the crime is in this particular case, unless it is exposing the myth that some people think they have golden ears and can hear what us mere mortals cannot. They appear to have never heard the fable of the Emperor's New Clothes. I can see why some would want that to be considered a crime but it really isn't.

Of course some of the other stuff he is said to have done is not as amusing and again I wonder why he hasn't been brought before the courts.

RaymondLin

No one is bullying anyone.  What people have done is bring up Mason’s past dealings to light to Lee, ask him why he is doing business with him. His answer is basically plead ignorance.  He doesn’t need to be asked not to do business with someone like that, his conscience alone should tell him it is wrong to.

UnclePsychosis

Bullying? Behave. 

Heartfeltdawn

deano said:

I wonder if Lee Anderton is making the point that he won't be bullied by Internet commentators. I agree with that attitude completely.

....

Where is the crime? The original maker got their money in full, and the buyer of the "fake" pedal got what they wanted - a pedal that cost hundreds of dollars. They must have liked what they heard otherwise why buy the pedal? But I fail to see what the crime is in this particular case, unless it is exposing the myth that some people think they have golden ears and can hear what us mere mortals cannot. They appear to have never heard the fable of the Emperor's New Clothes. I can see why some would want that to be considered a crime but it really isn't.

Of course some of the other stuff he is said to have done is not as amusing and again I wonder why he hasn't been brought before the courts.

"Bullied by Internet commentators" - Lee isn't being bullied. You spend much of this post talking of Internet commentators in derogatory terms whilst a man who admitted to fraud in the past and who repeats a very specific lie. 

Misrepresentation of a product could well be considered fraud. If you've seen the raft of changes that Mason made to the Vertex product descriptions, then you'll know how the tweaks worked to keep him just on the right side of the law whilst sending out C&D letters to people who reported the truth accurately regarding the pedals. 

I would liken the situation to a footballer who dives. It isn't a crime but it is against the spirit of the game and so the barracking that player receives from fans is deserved. 

Wazmeister

Bullying ?!? 

As my Dad would say, “get a grip...”

deano

Heartfeltdawn said:

I would liken the situation to a footballer who dives. It isn't a crime but it is against the spirit of the game and so the barracking that player receives from fans is deserved. 

That analogy doesn't work. Diving is properly known as simulation, and is very much against the Laws of Football. Players can be carded and banned if guilty. So again, why hasn't this man been prosecuted? Is it because he has done some shady things, but hasn't actually broken the law?

I am not defending him by any means, I would not buy something from him and would caution people against doing so.

But I disagree that people are not trying to bully Anderton's. I think they are. I think they want to prevent Anderton's selling his products and they are threatening boycotts if they don't. Of course people can choose what to spend their money on, and what principles to employ when doing so, but attacking a business - which bear in mind operates within UK law and anyone buying one of these pedals from Andertons has the whole of UK consumer protection legislation to protect them - who had nothing to do with his past business dealings, and who genuinely believe what he is selling right now is a good product, well that doesn't sit right with me.

As I say, I am coming to this only having read this thread and a few of the TGP pages. I suppose it is this guys misfortune to be trying to start a company in this day and age when communications are so global. Years ago people set up businesses that failed and failed and failed, and yes, perhaps engaging in some unethical business practices to boot, before getting one right and becoming successful. Can't do that these days. Even if you don't break any laws, you have to be held to the Internet's ethical standards, which means being perfect in every regard.

But I wonder how many people we actually revere as successful business owners ŵould have been able to do so in this day and age. Do we know anything about Marks, or Spencer, or CF Martin's, or Leo Fender's, or Stradivarius', or Goldman or Sachs early business ventures before they got it right? Did they never engage in any practices that would get them hounded out of business in todays Internet-centred world? We'll never know because they had the good luck to exist when they did.

Anyway, this chap is going to be forced out of business it seems, and will probably end up on the US version of benefits, being unable to get a job because of his reputation. A cursory search by anyone thinking of offering a job in any capacity will turn up enough to surely make them think twice.

Maybe he will screw up again. Maybe he won't. He won't be getting rich out of me, that's for certain, but I just can't bring myself to condemn him outright when what he has done, in any other age, would probably simply be classed as gaining experience on the way to running a successful company, providing products people want and employing people. Not when the products he is selling today are through a reputable company like Anderton's. 

I don't know. You don't get the standard of conmen these days that you used to get. It used to be the case that a film crew from That's Life would doorstep you, forcing you to flee to the Costa del Sol. Nowadays you get to make a video on YouTube.

menamestom

Whilst I don't agree with Andertons promoting the guy, it wouldn't stop me using Andertons.

Nestle have done far worse than any pedal shark yet I still shop at supermarkets that stock and promote their products.  I just tend to avoid the products, when I remember.  Personally I think there would be an ethical contradiction, boycotting a music shop over something like this without improvement of my overall principles and standards in other areas.   An easy choice to make, not using a music shop, but so is not using Tesco or Amazon.


One day I will raise my standards, in all areas, all at once;)

Teetonetal

deano said:

I wonder if Lee Anderton is making the point that he won't be bullied by Internet commentators. I agree with that attitude completely.

I suspect that once the existing stock of Vertex pedals has been sold they wont get any more in, and it wouldn't surprise me if in a few months time, when all the heat has died down, that particular video will quietly be taken down.

To do that now will mean that Lee will appear to have been bullied into it, and he doesn't strike me as someone who lets himself be bullied.

Of course that will not please the bullies because they want to be seen as "winning". But in the end, it is probably the right way to fix this in that the chap will not have a long term future with Anderton's and he won't be able to rely on that video for advertising, but by the same token the Internet commentators will not have what they want, which is for Anderton's to stop showing it now and to publicly condemn this man.

I reckon you won't see the video on Anderton's official channel within the year, nor will you be able to buy a Vertex pedal after they have been offloaded. In five years time nobody will (a) remember or (b) care that for a very brief time Anderton's carried this pedal and had a video about them on YouTube.

Sorry, but bullying is wide of the mark here and cheapens the real meaning of the word immensely.

i think the vertex guy through his past actions has been shown in a true light and he has to accept that people don’t have to forgive and forget.

i think Andertons have been at best naive but I think if lee wants to give a 2nd chance so be it. But not with my money.

deano

By the way, the phrase "passing off" has been used a few times and the guy in the video might or might not be guilty of it, but what he did with the BBE pedal by replacing the labels is not passing off.

For it to have been passing off he would have had to replace the label with one from a company that hadn't given him permission to do so.

The laws around passing off are designed to protect consumers from buying a product that is not that on the label, and also at the same time, to protect the reputation of the company who's label had been put on.

For example if I buy a Tesco Value Pork Pie and label it as a Marks and Spencer Premium Pork Pie, I am passing off an inferior pork pie off as a superor pork pie, and using Marks and Spencer's reputation to help me sell it.

But if I labelled a Tesco Value pork pie and labelled it as Deano's Lovely pork pie, then no reputation has been damaged and consumers have not been fooled into thinking they are buying a M&S pie.

It is the same with buying a BBE pedal and relabelling it as a Vertex pedal before selling it for a huge amount of money. No reputation has suffered and no reputation has been used to sell the product except Vertex's such as it is. Therefore it is not passing off. It might be embarrassing, or sharp-practice, or funny depending on how you feel about it, but it is not passing off.

Just wanted to clarify that because accusing someone of passing off without proof is not a good idea legally.

VJIves

Jesus Christ. Some impressively nuanced takes on 'bad guy keeps doing bad stuff' here.

BBBlues

deano said:

By the way, the phrase "passing off" has been used a few times and the guy in the video might or might not be guilty of it, but what he did with the BBE pedal by replacing the labels is not passing off.

For it to have been passing off he would have had to replace the label with one from a company that hadn't given him permission to do so.

The laws around passing off are designed to protect consumers from buying a product that is not that on the label, and also at the same time, to protect the reputation of the company who's label had been put on.

For example if I buy a Tesco Value Pork Pie and label it as a Marks and Spencer Premium Pork Pie, I am passing off an inferior pork pie off as a superor pork pie, and using Marks and Spencer's reputation to help me sell it.

But if I labelled a Tesco Value pork pie and labelled it as Deano's Lovely pork pie, then no reputation has been damaged and consumers have not been fooled into thinking they are buying a M&S pie.

It is the same with buying a BBE pedal and relabelling it as a Vertex pedal before selling it for a huge amount of money. No reputation has suffered and no reputation has been used to sell the product except Vertex's such as it is. Therefore it is not passing off. It might be embarrassing, or sharp-practice, or funny depending on how you feel about it, but it is not passing off.

Just wanted to clarify that because accusing someone of passing off without proof is not a good idea legally.

It has been proved. He passed off BBE wahs as Vertex whilst hiking the price. It literally is passing it off.

Anacharsis

deano said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

I would liken the situation to a footballer who dives. It isn't a crime but it is against the spirit of the game and so the barracking that player receives from fans is deserved. 

That analogy doesn't work. Diving is properly known as simulation, and is very much against the Laws of Football. Players can be carded and banned if guilty. So again, why hasn't this man been prosecuted? Is it because he has done some shady things, but hasn't actually broken the law?

I am not defending him by any means, I would not buy something from him and would caution people against doing so.

But I disagree that people are not trying to bully Anderton's. I think they are. I think they want to prevent Anderton's selling his products and they are threatening boycotts if they don't. Of course people can choose what to spend their money on, and what principles to employ when doing so, but attacking a business - which bear in mind operates within UK law and anyone buying one of these pedals from Andertons has the whole of UK consumer protection legislation to protect them - who had nothing to do with his past business dealings, and who genuinely believe what he is selling right now is a good product, well that doesn't sit right with me.

As I say, I am coming to this only having read this thread and a few of the TGP pages. I suppose it is this guys misfortune to be trying to start a company in this day and age when communications are so global. Years ago people set up businesses that failed and failed and failed, and yes, perhaps engaging in some unethical business practices to boot, before getting one right and becoming successful. Can't do that these days. Even if you don't break any laws, you have to be held to the Internet's ethical standards, which means being perfect in every regard.

But I wonder how many people we actually revere as successful business owners ŵould have been able to do so in this day and age. Do we know anything about Marks, or Spencer, or CF Martin's, or Leo Fender's, or Stradivarius', or Goldman or Sachs early business ventures before they got it right? Did they never engage in any practices that would get them hounded out of business in todays Internet-centred world? We'll never know because they had the good luck to exist when they did.

Anyway, this chap is going to be forced out of business it seems, and will probably end up on the US version of benefits, being unable to get a job because of his reputation. A cursory search by anyone thinking of offering a job in any capacity will turn up enough to surely make them think twice.

Maybe he will screw up again. Maybe he won't. He won't be getting rich out of me, that's for certain, but I just can't bring myself to condemn him outright when what he has done, in any other age, would probably simply be classed as gaining experience on the way to running a successful company, providing products people want and employing people. Not when the products he is selling today are through a reputable company like Anderton's. 

I don't know. You don't get the standard of conmen these days that you used to get. It used to be the case that a film crew from That's Life would doorstep you, forcing you to flee to the Costa del Sol. Nowadays you get to make a video on YouTube.

So are you suggesting that any and all boycotts or consumer push back on retailers constitute bullying? Because in my opinion, that's plain old crazy. If not, be specific: what's distinctive about this situation that makes it "bullying?"