About bloody time too !

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Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13736
Never Argue With Idiots - They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

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  • Beats me why Joe Public doesn't respond this way. Moped riders are vulnerable and there is little need to be afraid of them, unless the pillion has a gun.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • usedtobeusedtobe Frets: 2622
     so if you fancy a reissue of a guitar they never made in a colour they never used then it probably isn't too overpriced.

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 4077
    Only trouble is that a car has to catch them or get close in the first place ; the reason they get away is because the scooters are so much more manoeuvrable in Urban environments.
     Very few are "mopeds" ...the majority are very fast 400 and 250cc scooters .
    Harpoon ?
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  • Paul_CPaul_C Frets: 4411
    Beats me why Joe Public doesn't respond this way. Moped riders are vulnerable and there is little need to be afraid of them, unless the pillion has a gun.

    or a tiger.
    CEO ACME Moats Inc.
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  • Paul_C said:
    Beats me why Joe Public doesn't respond this way. Moped riders are vulnerable and there is little need to be afraid of them, unless the pillion has a gun.

    or a tiger.
    That would be a circus act.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 6287
    Wot Bruv Wot Wot WHAT NOW PUSSYOLE..CRUNCH.. ..MUMMYYYYyyy!!......SPLAT...

    I feel sorry for the disaffected yoof of today, its societys fault innit..
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13736
    They should consider themselves lucky.  If this were the US, they'd be on the receiving end of a Glock 17 instead of a nudge from a plastic bumper.  It's not often I applaud the police, but in this case, it's well deserved.  Finally someone had the balls to impliment a controversial policy.

    If only they'd find those balls to deal with the travellers who nick everything that isn't nailed down instead of kissing their arses and turning a blind eye to everything they get up to.
    Never Argue With Idiots - They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 1508
    And, as if by magic, the Met are now being investigated...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46321720
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • PC_Dave said:
    And, as if by magic, the Met are now being investigated...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46321720
    ... presumably because some hand-wringing do-gooder has whinged about "duty of care" in similar manner to them that don't like it if a burglar gets hurt while trying to nick your stuff.

    I think we should be allowed to stop them by any means necessary. (them = burglars, moped thieves and similar undesirables)
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 14386
    Seems entirely appropriate to investigate. This is the sort of thing that needs to be used appropriately.

    Exactly the same as how if you kill a burglar they arrest you and investigate .
    Parachutes are great, for dogs and Frenchmen. 
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  • MyrandaMyranda Frets: 2728
    Now, while I don't approve of stealing or yoofs on moped doing bad things... 

    Young black thief killed by armed police - BLACK LIVES MATTER YOU MONSTERS!!!!
    Young helmeted (so we can't see their skin colour) thief-on-moped rammed off the road by car - WOOHOO WELL DONE RUN THEM OVER MORE!!! CRUSH THEIR SKULLS UNDER YOUR WHEELS, AND LET THE PUBLIC JOIN IN TOO!!!

    I feel that the internet should get its rhetoric straight ...

    So far as we know the teenagers on moped are doing mostly petty theft, or handbag snatching - certainly upsetting for the victim, but they'll live, so maybe driving cars into them with the possible outcome of killing them might be ludicrously excessive force?

    PC_Dave said:
    And, as if by magic, the Met are now being investigated...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46321720
    ... presumably because some hand-wringing do-gooder has whinged about "duty of care" in similar manner to them that don't like it if a burglar gets hurt while trying to nick your stuff.

    I think we should be allowed to stop them by any means necessary. (them = burglars, moped thieves and similar undesirables)
    Handbag stolen ... MACHINE GUN THEM TO DEATH!! Littering then getting away on a moped? Nuke them and ignore any collateral damage!

    Forget duty of care, how about proportionate response? We don't have the death sentence here in the UK, and we don't use torture or violent corporal punishment like snapping limbs, or scraping peoples skin off with pavement. Driving a car into a moped rider could result in broken bones, lose of skin, loss of fingers/limbs, death etc. Are we ok with teenagers maybe being permanently injured over petty crime?

    I will re-iterate I don't approve of stealing, I don't think moped yoofs should be impervious capture, but I also think that stupid teens who have gone and done something stupid and criminal probably shouldn't be run over by the police - especially as some innocent people ride mopeds and in the dark most moped-ists look alike, if the police were given the wrong licence plate and run over an innocent because we have a new run-people-over-and-try-to-convict-later policy we might find our friends/relatives have been killed by the police because they were misidentified ... or it could become the next SWATing - phone in a fake report about someone you know rides a moped maybe the police will drive a car over their face because that's what the public demands now...


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  • SassafrasSassafras Frets: 12733
    How do you have a high speed pursuit of a moped?
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 4077
    They're not petty crime
    the bunch that did the jewellers in Brent x got away with £400,000 of Rolex watches 
    A drug dealer caught with £400k of Coke would get about 15 years
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  • ShrewsShrews Frets: 337
    I think the majority of the country think this is a good thing.

    There will be a tiny % who think it's wrong.  

    The tiny % will win when a police car paralyses one of the moped thieves.  The newspapers and TV will also be all over it.  Hardly anything will be made of the fantastic reduction in moped crime and no doubt the paralysed moped thief will win a substantial six figure sum compensation. 

    If he wasn't thieving using a moped, then he would still be walking. That's the way I look at it.

    And while they're at it, get stuck into those knife crime kids. Instead of Khan saying' We're not going to get on top of it for 10 years', how about warning that anyone caught on da streetz with an illegal knife will be forced to share a prison cell with Donkey-Dick-Duncan, the Scottish Super-Heavyweight Naked Wrestling Champion of 1975, jailed in 1980 for crimes against anal orrifices with blunt instruments.  

    News has it that Duncan likes working with rolling pins and marrows in the prison kitchen.


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  • SporkySporky Frets: 14386
    Shrews said:

    The tiny % will win when a police car paralyses one of the moped thieves. 

    No. No-one wins when that happens  which is why it is right for the tactic to be investigated, and used if/where appropriate.
    Parachutes are great, for dogs and Frenchmen. 
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  • ShrewsShrews Frets: 337
    Sporky said:
    Shrews said:

    The tiny % will win when a police car paralyses one of the moped thieves. 

    No. No-one wins when that happens  which is why it is right for the tactic to be investigated, and used if/where appropriate.

    No, nobody wins, but it could be argued that the public wins.

    Trouble is, if the police are ramming a moped up the backside at speed, then there is a risk of paralysis (and death of course).  However controlled it might be, if people are knocked off bikes at speed then there is a risk of paralysis.

    In good old risk management. What's the likelihood ?  High, I'd guess.

    Trouble is it also gets weighed up versus the risk if they do nothing. The likelihood of serious injury and death to the public is surely even higher because the collision wouldn't be controlled.

    Uncontrolled collision is surely a higher risk than a controlled one?

    And what if the police have the opportunity to knock someone off but choose not to, fearing the consequences of that action and then the moped thrashes into a woman and her baby on a zebra crossing somewhere.

    Therefore, and all jokes aside (Donkey Duncan etc!) then I think the risk is worth it.

    But my main point is that it'll be such an interest generating news story in our 24 hour news world that it will appear that the police are at fault.....and then we can kiss goodnight to the practice and the crimes will start to rise again.

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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13736
    It's not as if they are slamming into them at 'obliteration speed' - a moped is a very easy vehicle to disable with the gentlest of nudges.  Personally, I'd be happier running the small risk of a criminal getting injured at a low speed than the inevitable far far greater risk of an innocent person getting seriously injured by one of these scrotes doing 60 trying to evade a pursuing police car - or - the ongoing risk of innocent folk getting their stuff stolen.
    Never Argue With Idiots - They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 1010
    edited November 25
    Break the law, get punished, simples. Who cares if they break a few bones, don't steal off people, if the cretins didn't thieve and then drive away they wouldn't be knocked off and risk the damage. The drop in moped related crime since they started doing it is hardly coincidental, good on the police. It's about time we started getting tougher.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • MyrandaMyranda Frets: 2728
    Once again, not a single person run over has by our legal definition been guilty of a crime when the police are running them down.

    Not every report of crime is 100% accurate... Maybe the caller gets the licence plate wrong, and a perfectly innocent person on a moped is violently murdered by a policeman with a car... Maybe the "crime" was a movie being filmed and a film star is paralysed for your bloodlust... Maybe the police just hear the call and misidentify the the moped as the next moped they see... All three of these scenarios are based on mistakes that have happened - does anyone want to hear a friend or loved one has had their lives ruined by police who are chasing the Daily Mail vote? And don't give me the "if they don't run they won't get run over". Non-sense several of those impacts filmed were head on. 

    What about pedestrians? Police car swerves to run down a teen that stole a handbag and runs over your grandmother killing her... Well at least the toerag that did a steal is in jail... 

    How about some things that might not be so dangerous? Paintball guns for the police with indelible ink to mark suspects so that if they get away they will be identifiable (thinking along the lines of the dye packs used to catch back robbers... Blueman group step of a more they're pretty easy to see), or mopeds/motocross bikes for the police - then the baddies aren't more manoeuvrable so a sensible speed chase occurs and you arrest them at the other end. There two ways to look to tackle moped crime that doesn't involve driving cars over fucking teenagers... And that's at 6:30 on a Sunday from one person, maybe the entire metropolitan police force could brainstorm a way to tackle crime that doesn't involve possible human rights violations or maiming possible innocent lives...

    We're not America we would probably like to think ourselves safe from our police because we don't encourage them towards running people over prior to any evidence of a crime is presented and scrutinised... Or perhaps you'd rather live in a world where you and your loved ones risk violent deaths or permanent injuries every time they leave their home simply because or police force are getting gung-ho to appease the daily mail readership.

    Dominic said:
    They're not petty crime
    the bunch that did the jewellers in Brent x got away with £400,000 of Rolex watches 
    A drug dealer caught with £400k of Coke would get about 15 years
    Oh well, if one crime is the majority of crimes then its not a problem its it... 

    Even if it were, we don't drive cars over drug dealers we arrest them, try them in a court and if guilty we imprison them...

    The drive away from a crime is not a court room, and we rightly don't trust individual police officers to be judge and jury (except in extreme situations of imminent danger to life - and we still investigate all of those to make sure they did things correctly!)... The bar for entry into the police is not high enough to place that level of power in their hands - its why few of our police are armed and why armed officers aren't sent to every crime. 
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3948
    Myranda said:
    Once again, not a single person run over has by our legal definition been guilty of a crime when the police are running them down.

    Not every report of crime is 100% accurate... Maybe the caller gets the licence plate wrong, and a perfectly innocent person on a moped is violently murdered by a policeman with a car... Maybe the "crime" was a movie being filmed and a film star is paralysed for your bloodlust... Maybe the police just hear the call and misidentify the the moped as the next moped they see... All three of these scenarios are based on mistakes that have happened - does anyone want to hear a friend or loved one has had their lives ruined by police who are chasing the Daily Mail vote? And don't give me the "if they don't run they won't get run over". Non-sense several of those impacts filmed were head on. 

    What about pedestrians? Police car swerves to run down a teen that stole a handbag and runs over your grandmother killing her... Well at least the toerag that did a steal is in jail... 

    How about some things that might not be so dangerous? Paintball guns for the police with indelible ink to mark suspects so that if they get away they will be identifiable (thinking along the lines of the dye packs used to catch back robbers... Blueman group step of a more they're pretty easy to see), or mopeds/motocross bikes for the police - then the baddies aren't more manoeuvrable so a sensible speed chase occurs and you arrest them at the other end. There two ways to look to tackle moped crime that doesn't involve driving cars over fucking teenagers... And that's at 6:30 on a Sunday from one person, maybe the entire metropolitan police force could brainstorm a way to tackle crime that doesn't involve possible human rights violations or maiming possible innocent lives...

    We're not America we would probably like to think ourselves safe from our police because we don't encourage them towards running people over prior to any evidence of a crime is presented and scrutinised... Or perhaps you'd rather live in a world where you and your loved ones risk violent deaths or permanent injuries every time they leave their home simply because or police force are getting gung-ho to appease the daily mail readership.

    Dominic said:
    They're not petty crime
    the bunch that did the jewellers in Brent x got away with £400,000 of Rolex watches 
    A drug dealer caught with £400k of Coke would get about 15 years
    Oh well, if one crime is the majority of crimes then its not a problem its it... 

    Even if it were, we don't drive cars over drug dealers we arrest them, try them in a court and if guilty we imprison them...

    The drive away from a crime is not a court room, and we rightly don't trust individual police officers to be judge and jury (except in extreme situations of imminent danger to life - and we still investigate all of those to make sure they did things correctly!)... The bar for entry into the police is not high enough to place that level of power in their hands - its why few of our police are armed and why armed officers aren't sent to every crime. 
    The plods aren't going to ram you without any warning.  They will put their blue lights on and tell you to pull over.  You are requireds to stop when pulled over.  A law abiding person will stop.  They very fact that they ride off at high speed is a bit of a giveaway.

    Your idea about indelible ink is already happening.  If you read some of the articles on this, they are spraying them with some kind of DNA marker.

    The big problem here is that the kids on the mopeds were deliberately taking their helmets off, because previously the police wouldn't chase them when they did this.  There has been a change of policy so that the police can still chase them.  If you take your helmet off, and suffer an injury as a result, it is now your own fault - which seems fair enough.

    I am a bit worried that I find myself in agreement with @Emp_Fab though.


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  • SporkySporky Frets: 14386
    Boromedic said:
    The drop in moped related crime since they started doing it is hardly coincidental
    I'm not sure that's been established.

    People have become more aware of the scooter crime thing, so are perhaps being more careful and aware, making it a less successful tactic fir the thieves. As such it's hard to be certain what's really had the impact. 
    Parachutes are great, for dogs and Frenchmen. 
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  • gringopiggringopig Frets: 617
    edited November 25
    Yes, why bother with that pesky judicial system when you can run people down in police cars and have a baying crowd of pitchfork wielding would-be vigilantes cheering on.
    Yes, dispense with that terrible inconvenience that is the rule of law developed over hundreds of years with all the checks and balances carefully worked out and just run over suspected criminals. If a few innocent people get maimed or paralysed then hey ho...
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13736
    Straw man argument.

    We are discussing the pursuit of moped riders who are obviously trying to evade the police.

    That does not mean “shooting anyone they don’t like the look of” anymore than me saying “you are making a straw man argument” means “you are a lefty idiot who would let all the rapists out of prison”.
    Never Argue With Idiots - They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

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  • gringopiggringopig Frets: 617
    edited November 25
    Emp_Fab said:
    Straw man argument.

    We are discussing the pursuit of moped riders who are obviously trying to evade the police.

    That does not mean “shooting anyone they don’t like the look of” anymore than me saying “you are making a straw man argument” means “you are a lefty idiot who would let all the rapists out of prison”.
    Ye, I changed that. I do believe in the rule of law to which we are all held. The police included. I'm not in favour of knocking them down on scooters at all. I also have no idea what a straw man argument is lol nor do I want to know. It sounds like the language people use who argue on the internet and we're not doing that are we?
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 2357
    Emp_Fab said:
    It's not as if they are slamming into them at 'obliteration speed' - a moped is a very easy vehicle to disable with the gentlest of nudges.  Personally, I'd be happier running the small risk of a criminal getting injured at a low speed than the inevitable far far greater risk of an innocent person getting seriously injured by one of these scrotes doing 60 trying to evade a pursuing police car - or - the ongoing risk of innocent folk getting their stuff stolen.
    Exactly it's the balance of risk.  Moped crime is becoming a problem in London, ultimately the police will get to a point where they can't pursue, so when they get a shot at a non-lethal takedown, they should take it.

    Dealing with gang crime is incredibly difficult for the police and will inevitably get worse.  A friend summed it up for me as "these kids grow up with out the love and connection of a family, so they go out and find it in the gangs".

    That family bond will be almost impossible to break, even when it leads to violence and murder.  In all honestly nicking someone's mobile is pretty mild compared to what they do to each other.
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 1404
    Some of these moped gangs are stealing stones from historical/archaeological sites.
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 3438
    Kilgore said:
    Some of these moped gangs are stealing stones from historical/archaeological sites.
    Excellent work ! Bravo sir !!!!
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 1010
    Some people really need to take a reality check, it's not about blood lust it's about the police being able to do their job. Do you think they're just randomly ramming teenagers off mopeds for god's sake? Then you laughably compare us to Daily Fail readers!! Hahaha nice try, don't think thats me. I grew up on estates riddled with crime, it only started to get better when the police took a hard-line (Ray Mallon at the time pushed US style policies). We used to get stopped all the time by the police, we never ran as we weren't always up to no good. 

    No one is advocating Judge Dredd but you're creating a straw man argument as Emp says. Like these cretins who defend car thieves who are injured running from the cops. It's pretty simple, don't break the law and then you don't have to be injured. Or stop when the cops ask you to instead of running away. 

    The other argument is remove some of the motivations, we really need to legalise all drugs. We previously had a system that worked well till we allowed the US to take charge of our strategies. It's not a panacea, but it will help massively if you remove the profit from illegal drugs. 

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 1010
    Sporky said:
    Boromedic said:
    The drop in moped related crime since they started doing it is hardly coincidental
    I'm not sure that's been established.

    People have become more aware of the scooter crime thing, so are perhaps being more careful and aware, making it a less successful tactic fir the thieves. As such it's hard to be certain what's really had the impact. 
    So I'm pretty sure the tactics from the police have had an impact. Not just the public being more careful, as it's a pretty decent drop yes it may be a multifaceted reason, but it's clearly had an impact. 

    Here's a question, how many of those against these kind of tactics, have been on the receiving end of criminal behaviour? 

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • SporkySporky Frets: 14386
    Boromedic said:
    Here's a question, how many of those against these kind of tactics, have been on the receiving end of criminal behaviour? 
    And for balance, how many who are in favour of the police using cars as weapons have ever witnessed the police being dicks? 

    Or maybe we stick to discussing the topic, not each other? 
    Parachutes are great, for dogs and Frenchmen. 
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