help me to start learning to improvise.

nickp

at the risk of coming in late to the discussion.  similar to many old bloke, not played for a long time, didn't practice.  I know there is shedloads that I don't know.

1. lessons with a very good teacher - the average teachers are as confused as me about what I can and can't do

2. @grunfeld is the man. practice technique every day - my playing has improved massively over 6 months and I am starting to play some stuff I hear in my head because my fingers know what it is.  not songs but scales, picking, arpeggios and chords.  they become muscle memory and the brain clicks in too.  Songs I play in the evening for "fun" and for the band etc - using a jamming program which can slow down and loop bits of songs

3. the metronome is your friend - nearly all my technique practice is now done to a metronome.  my "real life - band" timing has become soo much better

4. learning to improvise - ultimately means learning scales and arpeggios to give you vocabulary - so back to daily practice so they live in your fingers.  As well as that the actual beginning of learning to "improvise" the advice is to play the chord progression lots because the difference between sounding good and just widdling is knowing where you are in the progression and outlining the underlying chords.  

5. after playing the rhythm part a lot, then do what @grunfeld and other say and move to playing just the root of each chord and go from there.

6. learn some stock phrases in the musical idiom you like coz most guitarists take these musical ideas and make them their own.  along the lines of clapton nicked from his predecessors as did stevie ray vaughan and everyone else

that is the approach that I understand works for mere mortals.  those who have music running through their soul and pouring out of their fingers can abandon steps 2-6 and just work on enough technique to channel.  That isn't me.

xSkarloey

My son is in the same boat as he's learning the saxophone.

I just tell him to not be afraid to play., even if the earlier results are bad or indifferent.

You've got to get all the bad out before you get the good.

frankus

it's learning to make the bad good

Fusionista

I tell my kids "If you do the work, the body learns by itself - it's automatic."  I say it because I wish somebody had said it to me when I was young. How many times have I thought when I first started to learn a lick (or even that first F barre chord) "I'll never get this." Not true: the next day, or the day after, if you practice, it comes. The fine muscle movement that is required can only be handled by the subconscious mind.

Elx

The idea of improvising is being able to hear it first in your head before you can play it, or at least that's what the pros say... Now, I would be really interested to know how many people can really do it. It's very difficult and for this you need to have a special talent. For the most part, it's hard work, a lot of hard work. I don't hear anything in my head when I improvise, I just go with the shapes and I throw my fingers around the neck where I know it will work. But then again, that's why I haven't made a career But I am happy being able to entertain myself, and I don't mind being a bedroom player, as long as I am happy with what I can do n the guitar and entertain myself and a couple of family members

Steve Vai once said, it's all about how good you can be when playing live, I've heard great players who fall apart when they're on stage. I would be one of those. In my bedroom I play extremely good I would say, last night for example I played along to an entire Vinnie Moore's Time Odyssey album, but if I was to play it live, at high volume, I think I would collapse. 

Sorry for hijacking the thread Anyway, keep discovering and entertaining yourself, that's what it's all about...

Fusionista

Elx said: The idea of improvising is being able to hear it first in your head before you can play it, or at least that's what the pros say... 

As usual, there's a trick to it.  You don't have to know everything you are going to play beforehand.  It's more like reacting to what you have just played and are in the process of playing - and how it sounds in relation to the song and what the rest of the band is playing - in the moment and note to note.  In other words, it's knowing what you are going to play just a fraction of a second before you play it, and going from there all over again. Course you gotta have the chops

I learned this by experience, but I recall getting a hint from an old Larry Carlton instructional DVD where it is not explicitly stated or explained but in hindsight you get what he is implying. If you want an example, check out my solo on the Purple Rain clip here https://www.facebook.com/pages/5Aside-Band/603362123087697 (from 1:00).  I didn't know what I was going to play at all, and indeed couldn't remember what I had played, except a kind member of the audience recorded it for posterity!

frankus

Elx;233623" said:

The idea of improvising is being able to hear it first in your head before you can play it, or at least that's what the pros say... Now, I would be really interested to know how many people can really do it.

play slowly to begin with!

 It's very difficult and for this you need to have a special talent.

no it's not and no you don't! Just keep time and the rest just happen

 For the most part, it's hard work, a lot of hard work.

yes, yes it is - but it's fun so it doesn't seem like hard work

 I don't hear anything in my head when I improvise,

then you're not improvising. First step - rhythm... hear a rhythm or sing it da-dad-adadadad -adada... then play that... next you know the direction the notes lie in... up or down ... so even if you play the wrong note it's still recogniseable

A trick to playing melodic lines is to focus on your breathing ... stop every time you inhale... you'll get lines like a saxophonist.

 I just go with the shapes and I throw my fingers around the neck where I know it will work.

that's painting by numbers. Imagine talking to someone who replied using the right sounding words.

"Firstly let me see I hear what you're saying 110% it's the normality of it's entirety that differentiates the interface of the beginning ... from the end while the middle is heretofore not to be confused with the thing that it is easy to confuse that thing with in it's least complex form as Huegens indicated in 1928 using the paradox isolation principle of soma"

First off if there's 7 notes that are "right" there's a pentatonic scale that's "wrong" -- Victor Wooten is a great one for killing that myth, playing a solo of the wrong notes and tearing it up - there are no wrong notes just an inability for some to know how to use them.

I'd love to show the youtube footage for that solo - it kills all this debate about which Scale Grimoire to buy stone dead!

 But then again, that's why I haven't made a career But I am happy being able to entertain myself,

Wouldn't more risk be more entertaining? Or is the entertainment derived from predicting what will happen and havign that confirmed? Like showing prowess? I think both are useful.

and I don't mind being a bedroom player, as long as I am happy with what I can do n the guitar and entertain myself and a couple of family members

Seems fair enough.

Steve Vai once said, it's all about how good you can be when playing live, I've heard great players who fall apart when they're on stage.

I seem to recall the theory being you can expect the top 10% of your playing skills to desert you, even when you're used to playing on stage.

The trick to playing on stage is smiling, connecting with the audience and relaxing... but you'll still lose the top 10% so accept it

Improvising is not about learning... that means when you come to improvise you know the licks you're going to fuse (the results may be a little surprise but not too great) unlike when learning there's no space for "will this work?" it's going to sound fantastic even if it's crazy... hammer it a few times, grin and move on if it won't fit in.

@Fusionista - do you remember at IGF where Dario got one of the younger shredders who'd taken the jazz course to learn how to "shred outside" and made him slow the hell down... it kinda went like this:

"Wow that was amazing it was like... I wasn't playing patterns... I figured out the sound I wanted and my fingers found it ... sometimes right away!!"
"Ya, that's what we call improvising!"

Fusionista

Can't say I do remember!  But then I can't even remember my own solos these days

frankus

Spanish dude with glasses and a green RG iirc... maybe a Jem... great shredder and in a sickeningly short time a great improviser

Elx

@Frankus, fair points, thanks for your input...

I might have sounded like I'm clueless when I'm improvising, but I'm not really. Let's just say that I play it safe and I try to stay in my comfort zone. The way that people like Joe Pass, Mike Stern, Gambale or Alan Holdsworth hear what they will play before they actually play it will always beyond me. But nobody can convince me that Ritchie Blackmore improvises like that, and that's something I aspire to  

Fusionista

It's good to get inspiration from the greats rather than be disheartened, which is what happened to me in my teens.

frankus

Elx said:

The way that people like Joe Pass, Mike Stern, Gambale or Alan Holdsworth hear what they will play before they actually play it will always beyond me.

That's an injunction! a self imposed curse.

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing from a comfort zone, certainly not in a performance... but in practise that comfort zone should be being stretched - maybe you simply omitted that from what you've said.

Elx

frankus said:

Elx said:

The way that people like Joe Pass, Mike Stern, Gambale or Alan Holdsworth hear what they will play before they actually play it will always beyond me.

That's an injunction! a self imposed curse.

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing from a comfort zone, certainly not in a performance... but in practise that comfort zone should be being stretched - maybe you simply omitted that from what you've said.

I am actually, stretching all the time, but I am not sure about the end results Your comments make me think, thanks for that...The thing is, in the last couple of years I have started doubting every single note I play and I kind of fell apart. It's a psychological issue that should be addressed elsewhere I am simply not in a good place...When I listen to Ronnie O'Sullivan talk about his demons, it's like he's describing me...

Anyway, let's go back to the topic now

Phil_aka_Pip

Grunfeld said:

racefaceec90 said:

i don't practise either....

 

I thought so.  Start by fixing this.  It is essential; it's non-negotiable.

Practice.  Every day. 

Everything will improve after that.  Absolutely guaranteed.  You could make more progress in one year like this than in the twenty years of structureless non-practice you've already not-practiced.  You would be astonished at the level of player you could become compared to where you are now.

And then improvisation will be possible if that's what you choose do do.  Because you won't be able to improvise until you can play.

^ This ^

I learnt to improvise partly by playing scales & arpeggios. Natch the theory helps you to know what to do with them but even if you don't study a great deal of theory, common sense will tell you that using the minor seventh arpeggio will probably work over the minor chord of the same name, and if arpeggios really are every-other-note out of a scale then try super-imposing one over the chord 2 scale steps down (eg A-7 over F ... shares some notes & adds others, one day it might click as Fmaj9 but in the meantime its something nice to do).

Playing scales & arpeggios with a metronome not only helped my timing, it helped my pick technique and my tone production - as well as teaching my fingers to play patterns they'd not tried before.

frankus

Elx said:

I am simply not in a good place...When I listen to Ronnie O'Sullivan talk about his demons, it's like he's describing me...

Anyway, let's go back to the topic now

that is the topic!

if I feel insecure:
I hunch over (so my breathing shortens)
my posture goes to pieces (and my back will soon ache)
my feet turn in a little (putting stress on my knees)
my hand goes to my face (signalling negativity to others)
my head sinks down (making the least of my already limited looks)
my eyes look down (reducing eye contact that helps me understand others and connect to them)
the words I use become shortened (when really the things I'm feeling are harder to express)
in this state I can't make original jokes because I lack the abilities to see beyond my immediate situation
my abilities for creative thought are massively reduced
my abilities for physical exertion are decreased - increased cortisol, reduced oxygen

at that point people will avoid talking to me... put a guitar on me and people will not be entertained.

I've found that what I play has very very little to do with theory or undigested techniques, it has to be stuff I've immediate access to and the more confident I am the deeper that pool is and the more I'll risk because the worst that can happen is not too bad... the trick of confidence CANNOT come from knowing theory or techniques (that's conditional okayness and it goes at the slightest hint of doubt) so it's got to come from feelings and strategies to create those feelings.

I'd really recommend getting into stuff like The Music Lesson - By Victor Wooten, The Groove Workshop by Victor Wooten, Zen Guitar - By Phillip Toshio Sudo,(and eventually) Effortless Mastery by Kenny Werner.

Every great musician has demons, what sets them apart is they overcame them (you can tell this because they understand them intimately)

"I used to live in a room full of mirrors, all I could see was me - I took my spirit and I broke those mirrors and now the whole world is there for me to see." - Hendrix

"The more vulnerable and the more confused the song is, the equal and opposite effect is how I feel after having written it and the deeper I go admitting fear, admitting the confusion, the clearer I usually feel. I don't really feel vulnerable; I feel empowered by it." Alanis Morrisette

“Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.” Shakespear

“If you hear a voice within you say you cannot paint, then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.” - Van Gogh

I think giving your doubt an utter shit-kicking is the most important warm up to playing the guitar

sorry.... back on topic!

JAYJO

enjoyed reading that Frankus!  

Elx

@Frankus, interesting, clever and provocative as always

I will check out the stuff you have suggested, thanks!

frankus

Please don't think it's "clever" this isn't based on intellect at all - if anything it's based on experience and a whole lot of effort to understand it. If I've failed to express it at it's simplest level - then there's still stuff I don't understand about it (see how it's not about clever? ;^)

ChrisMusic

What excellent words Frankus.

I am saddened that I could only press the wisdom button once.

That has to be a primary candidate for the best, most insightful and most helpful post in the entire forum's history.  

frankus

That means a lot, thanks ... I might go back and re-read it myself