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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 15141
    Since it looks like February will be the last tFB jam in Huddersfield, let’s make it as good as we can.

    @ttony can you confirm the organisers have received the funds that have been paid to you so they can start booking things up for Feb? I imagine Bob needs a deposit. My £40 was paid back in August.  Keep 10% as a donation to tFB. 
    @Modellista ;
    re your first comment - I'd just say not necessarily "the last" in Hudds - watch this space ;) - but that's no reason not to make it as good as it can be ...

    re the second comment - there's an early post (usually second/third) in the thread for each session that keeps a note of who's signed up, and who's paid (12 so far for Hudds).    I either settle with the venue direct (if I'm there) or a.n.other of the organising team does so, generally by credit card.  I/they then get refunded from the PP receipts.    If deposits are necessary, then I can sort those if/when requested.

    Thanks for the offer of diverting 10% to forum coffers, but I tend to keep the session finances separate from general finances - no cross subsidisation from one to the other.  The sessions have - to date - run a small surplus which we discussed using to fund a "session kit" of leads, guitar stands, whatever that would be useful stuff to have around at a session for general attendee use.
    :)


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  • pmbombpmbomb Frets: 578
    re surplus - should it ever need a home, we recently did a gig as part of a festival with collection for: http://www.musiciansagainsthomelessness.net/


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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 15141
    pmbomb said:
    re surplus - should it ever need a home, we recently did a gig as part of a festival with collection for: http://www.musiciansagainsthomelessness.net/

    Brings back to mind the "Gimme Shelter"  tour that we almost arranged here back in early 2016  with Alnico & Jooky ... 
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 1774

    poopot said:

    What I have come to not appreciate is the subsequent snipping that has come to light... apparently “don’t they know it’s my song” and “why should I have some arsehole widdling over my song” was mentioned.

    well tbh, without some arsehole widdling all over your song it would really have fallen flat on its fucking arse pal!...

    Eh... who said all that "who is widdling on my song" nonsense - name and shame! @poopot :lol:


    Wouldn’t be RRight for me to say ;)
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  • pmbombpmbomb Frets: 578
    couldn't be me, I'm years away from being good enough to widdle.
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  • SnagsSnags Frets: 862
    I've been known to widdle in the churchyard late at night.  Songs? I normally shit all over those :)
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  • TTony said:
    Since it looks like February will be the last tFB jam in Huddersfield, let’s make it as good as we can.

    @ttony can you confirm the organisers have received the funds that have been paid to you so they can start booking things up for Feb? I imagine Bob needs a deposit. My £40 was paid back in August.  Keep 10% as a donation to tFB. 
    @Modellista ;
    re your first comment - I'd just say not necessarily "the last" in Hudds - watch this space ;) - but that's no reason not to make it as good as it can be ...

    re the second comment - there's an early post (usually second/third) in the thread for each session that keeps a note of who's signed up, and who's paid (12 so far for Hudds).    I either settle with the venue direct (if I'm there) or a.n.other of the organising team does so, generally by credit card.  I/they then get refunded from the PP receipts.    If deposits are necessary, then I can sort those if/when requested.

    Thanks for the offer of diverting 10% to forum coffers, but I tend to keep the session finances separate from general finances - no cross subsidisation from one to the other.  The sessions have - to date - run a small surplus which we discussed using to fund a "session kit" of leads, guitar stands, whatever that would be useful stuff to have around at a session for general attendee use.
    :)


    I surprised the jams don’t contribute more than that towards the forum funds - There were 25 people playing £27 to attend (that’s £675) at Quad jam I helped organise and the costs were about £250 for the venue and £100 for the excellent drummer, so £350 ish in total. Were there other costs ? They should be seen as a good fund raiser event, perhaps music charity donations such as pmbomb mentioned could be an output from future jams? I think the Hudds Jam raised funds for a local charity, which was good to be part of.
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  • fandangofandango Frets: 1233
    This is all very sad but inevitable considering the shit that the organisers have had to put up with from several quarters. 

    Since it looks like February will be the last tFB jam in Huddersfield, let’s make it as good as we can.

    @ttony can you confirm the organisers have received the funds that have been paid to you so they can start booking things up for Feb? I imagine Bob needs a deposit. My £40 was paid back in August.  Keep 10% as a donation to tFB. 
    Fir the record, I have already stumped up a £150 deposit for Bristol. Yet to be remunerated.

    Am hoping that @Brocco and I can pick some brains for this, and pull in some help from other quarters. 
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 1774
    I surprised the jams don’t contribute more than that towards the forum funds - There were 25 people playing £27 to attend (that’s £675) at Quad jam I helped organise and the costs were about £250 for the venue and £100 for the excellent drummer, so £350 ish in total. Were there other costs ? They should be seen as a good fund raiser event, perhaps music charity donations such as pmbomb mentioned could be an output from future jams? I think the Hudds Jam raised funds for a local charity, which was good to be part of.
    ^this... Woking was £15/head and there was 25 attendees on the day and a few that paid and didn’t turn up (iirc). The venue was only £190 for the day... the drummer didn’t get paid at that one.

    could have been a nice “community” donation.
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  • fandango said:
    This is all very sad but inevitable considering the shit that the organisers have had to put up with from several quarters. 

    Since it looks like February will be the last tFB jam in Huddersfield, let’s make it as good as we can.

    @ttony can you confirm the organisers have received the funds that have been paid to you so they can start booking things up for Feb? I imagine Bob needs a deposit. My £40 was paid back in August.  Keep 10% as a donation to tFB. 
    Fir the record, I have already stumped up a £150 deposit for Bristol. Yet to be remunerated.

    Am hoping that @Brocco and I can pick some brains for this, and pull in some help from other quarters. 
    Are you sure that’s a deposit @fandango, the Woking venue was only £40 more! ;)

    Suggest you get that from the jam funds, doesn’t seem right that you are out of pocket for helping organising. 
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  • By the figures quoted, the small surplus from the jams must be nudging a grand at this point?

    I'm sure we all agree that a surplus is a lot better than a defecit, but maybe...

    Releasing the full funds for Hudds to the local team ASAP.
    The full funds for Woking to the local team ASAP.
    A re-assessment of the value required for Bristol before any funds are acquired.

    Then follow that with a charitable donation to a music charity of anything outstanding from funds for the long-gone jams, especially if there is a musicians against homelessness charity, this time of year.

    Clear all this money talk up for good, nobody is doing anything they shouldn't be I'm sure of that much, so it might be good to go open-book and clear the air, especially as the pot has been kept seperate anyway?
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 1774

    Releasing the full funds for Hudds to the local team ASAP.
    The full funds for Woking to the local team ASAP.
    A re-assessment of the value required for Bristol before any funds are acquired.

    It’s certainly a novel idea... I mean, paying the venues their fee to secure the bookings and make sure no one is out of pocket, whodathunkit?!!!!
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  • It’s not right to withhold the funds from the organisers and ask them to dip into their own pocket, however temporarily, to cover costs. It’s not good enough to say it’s on a credit card - I doubt drummers walk around with a card reader attached to their phones.  No event in their right mind would agree to a third party holding their sales money and having to claim it back afterwards.

    Why should @fandango have to be out of pocket while tFB is holding attendees’ cash?

    I’d also like to see some numbers. From the figures quoted above, it’s looking like a 50% surplus. When I’ve paid for a jam it’s been in the expectation that the money is *all* going directly into funding the event, give or take a percentage to tFB. 
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  • Tone71Tone71 Frets: 307
    Quite sad to read this thread.

    I honestly cannot see why anyone would send negative PM's, the way I saw Woking was that it was a chance to get out of my comfort zone and get out and play with others, I was buzzing for ages after and the whole day was great fun, well organised and I was/am still grateful to everyone who organised and moved things along all day.

    After all most of us just turn up with a guitar having learnt our part and then go home again at the end of the day.


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  • hywelghywelg Frets: 1601
    I am surprised that anyone could find any fault with the recent Quad event @Bridgehouse . I thought it went very well indeed, as a first attendance for me I thought you did a great job.

    Would it help next time if I brought beer? If i say so myself some of my recent brews have been very respectable and better than a lot I've tried in pubs (and yes I do stay out of Greene King pubs!) I know everyone will be driving, but a pint at lunchtime'ish would maybe be OK?

    I've been running a jam in Nottingham with a bunch of mates, we get a few guests in when we can but we play mostly the same songs each time and try a decent job of them. I know sometimes it falls flat and I leave wondering if its worth it, but it usually comes good again soon thereafter. You'll perhaps feel better about the jams if you just attend as a player, less stress , more fun.


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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 1774
    hywelg said:

    Would it help next time if I brought beer?


    Beer is always welcome... although prolly frowned upon ;)
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  • SnagsSnags Frets: 862
    Bit late to this party, and have to say it's one it would nice not be on the guest list for, but ...

    To echo what others have said, @Bridgehouse, without wishing to go all love-in, I very much appreciate what you (and others) have done in organising the jams. I've not been on the board 12 months yet, so have only made the last Sasquatch and Quad, and although I've back-read a lot, am obviously ignorant of much history.

    All I do know is that I was nervous as hell going up to Sasquatch (nearly bottled out, in fact, on more than one occasion). However, it turned out to be a genuinely fun day, I met a bunch of people some of whom are now well on the way to becoming long-term friends (I hope), and all of whom were welcoming and encouraging. For someone who carries a lot of psychological/emotional baggage[1] around being 'accepted' and genuinely welcome within social groups, it's hard to express how great that was. To just slot in, laugh, not be judged or frowned at for mistakes, and to be accepted openly into a mixed group of people some of whom go way back, some of  whom were strangers to each other, but all were strangers to me was really quite special. Also, discovering so many of my fellow jammers are also socially inept shy nesh introverts who will simply shuffle their feet awkwardly when not given a specific task was quite liberating ;)

    To then get the support of yourself and @markblagdon to get a smaller, local, thing off the ground really meant (and continues to mean) a lot. That probably makes me sound like some part of an "in crowd"; if anyone's reading it that way, that's really not the case. I just selfishly wanted to do something local to keep alive a bit of the Sasquatch spirit, and was genuinely surprised and delighted that both Mark's would put themselves out to be part of that (not to mention the others who came, and are hopefully coming again in the new year - I know I drive a few hours to get to Sasquatch and Leicester, but it still surprises me people will do the same to come to the small local studio at the arse-end of an industrial estate where I live).

    So, yeah.  Thanks (again) for all the hard work, the organising, and the graft. I have no idea if I was ever part of the "intended demographic" - I've played live with loads of people for many years, but in a totally different context, and I don't think people realise how very, very different playing in a congregational worship band is to playing rock/pop songs. Pretty much everything about it is different from the ground up (the intention, the focus, the purpose, the way you play, the degree to which getting the part right matters vs creating a particular feel, the profound difference between playing with people vs playing to people etc.). So for me, I'm a newbie playing at the jams; I'm stepping into a world I've always fancied but never had the opportunity to explore. Thanks to the Mark's (and to @Legionreturns , and anyone else involved who I've failed to name-check but has been ground down by it). You've made a world of difference to my musical life in just a few short months.

    And for any rubbish and aggro you've had to field; as others have said, I just don't get it. At all. I mean, I know it happens, because I've been there in different contexts, and we all like to bitch and moan and say how we could do it better or it was never meant to be like this. But I don't get it in those contexts either. WTF people can't just say "Thank you", or if it's not floating their boat, walk on by, or even step up and organise something that does float their boat I'll never understand. And I know from bitter experience that just one well-placed bit of negativity can weigh heavier than 100 appreciations. But, well, fuck 'em if they haven't got a sense of humour.


    [1] Which, to be fair, I largely know is bullshit, but that's the joy of emotional hangups, they don't respond well to reason.
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  • Thanks @Snags ;

    You can be part of the clique now. I'll make sure to send you the super secret invite. 


    My Trading Feedback    |    You Bring The Band

    Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you
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  • pmbombpmbomb Frets: 578
    edited December 2018
    Snags said:

    (...... blah blah ....)

    But, well, fuck 'em if they haven't got a sense of humour.


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  • SnagsSnags Frets: 862
    @Legionreturns Not sure I want one - can't be much of a clique if it will accept me (Groucho Marx applies ;) ).

    @pmbomb ; :rasp:
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 2325
    Snags said:
    Bit late to this party, and have to say it's one it would nice not be on the guest list for, but ...

    To echo what others have said, @Bridgehouse, without wishing to go all love-in, I very much appreciate what you (and others) have done in organising the jams. I've not been on the board 12 months yet, so have only made the last Sasquatch and Quad, and although I've back-read a lot, am obviously ignorant of much history.

    All I do know is that I was nervous as hell going up to Sasquatch (nearly bottled out, in fact, on more than one occasion). However, it turned out to be a genuinely fun day, I met a bunch of people some of whom are now well on the way to becoming long-term friends (I hope), and all of whom were welcoming and encouraging. For someone who carries a lot of psychological/emotional baggage[1] around being 'accepted' and genuinely welcome within social groups, it's hard to express how great that was. To just slot in, laugh, not be judged or frowned at for mistakes, and to be accepted openly into a mixed group of people some of whom go way back, some of  whom were strangers to each other, but all were strangers to me was really quite special. Also, discovering so many of my fellow jammers are also socially inept shy nesh introverts who will simply shuffle their feet awkwardly when not given a specific task was quite liberating ;)

    To then get the support of yourself and @markblagdon to get a smaller, local, thing off the ground really meant (and continues to mean) a lot. That probably makes me sound like some part of an "in crowd"; if anyone's reading it that way, that's really not the case. I just selfishly wanted to do something local to keep alive a bit of the Sasquatch spirit, and was genuinely surprised and delighted that both Mark's would put themselves out to be part of that (not to mention the others who came, and are hopefully coming again in the new year - I know I drive a few hours to get to Sasquatch and Leicester, but it still surprises me people will do the same to come to the small local studio at the arse-end of an industrial estate where I live).

    So, yeah.  Thanks (again) for all the hard work, the organising, and the graft. I have no idea if I was ever part of the "intended demographic" - I've played live with loads of people for many years, but in a totally different context, and I don't think people realise how very, very different playing in a congregational worship band is to playing rock/pop songs. Pretty much everything about it is different from the ground up (the intention, the focus, the purpose, the way you play, the degree to which getting the part right matters vs creating a particular feel, the profound difference between playing with people vs playing to people etc.). So for me, I'm a newbie playing at the jams; I'm stepping into a world I've always fancied but never had the opportunity to explore. Thanks to the Mark's (and to @Legionreturns , and anyone else involved who I've failed to name-check but has been ground down by it). You've made a world of difference to my musical life in just a few short months.

    And for any rubbish and aggro you've had to field; as others have said, I just don't get it. At all. I mean, I know it happens, because I've been there in different contexts, and we all like to bitch and moan and say how we could do it better or it was never meant to be like this. But I don't get it in those contexts either. WTF people can't just say "Thank you", or if it's not floating their boat, walk on by, or even step up and organise something that does float their boat I'll never understand. And I know from bitter experience that just one well-placed bit of negativity can weigh heavier than 100 appreciations. But, well, fuck 'em if they haven't got a sense of humour.


    [1] Which, to be fair, I largely know is bullshit, but that's the joy of emotional hangups, they don't respond well to reason.
    I agree this is the difficult bit to understand what negativity there could be from these events.  I went to Water Rats and came to Snags shindig at the bottom end of hertford and both were entirely positive experiences.  I can't see what expectations anyone could have for an event run by amateurs for amateurs for no profit. As I said before to Ttony the fact I got there and people turned up and the doors weren't locked met all my expectations and everything else was a bonus.

    My only concern about this thread is the age old wisdom that if you are in a room and you don't know who the c#nt is it is probably you : )
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 1774
    munckee said:

    My only concern about this thread is the age old wisdom that if you are in a room and you don't know who the c#nt is it is probably you : )
    Easy to spot the c#nt in this instance by the level of behind the scenes interference and general fucktardery...
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  • pmbombpmbomb Frets: 578
    Huddersfield will continue if enough of us want it to, maybe it will change a little and have a new team pick up the baton (with gratitude to the kickstarters), but it's entirely possible.

    Where else in the world do we get to jam in a Motorhead themed studio and stay in a hotel a few metres from a great new wave brewery?


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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 15141


    Unusually, this discussion seems to have taken all sorts of twists and turns ...

    To explain re the funds ...

    What usually - ie in the past - has happened is that we've collected payments from attendees at jam sessions via the forum's PP account.  Not for any reason other than it seemed the simplest option.  I've then kept a running list of who's paid for the sessions on an early post in the relevant thread so all can see who's signed up to attend and who's  paid.  

    The monies have then been paid out either by me (if I was attending) on the day, or by another attendee (BridgeHouse / LegionReturns) if I wasn't attending, with me PPG'ing them from the payments received.

    I'm not aware that there's been any problem with anyone needing to pay out of their own pocket before funds have been received, there's certainly no reason for that to have happened.  Money usually comes in from attendees long before it needs to be paid out,  and I'm not aware that we needed to pay deposits for Quad or Sasquatch.

    The Bristol session is different.  I've not been collecting payments for that - not been asked to - so, AFAIK, that *is* all being handled by the local organiser/s.  We do normally see cash coming in before cash goes out, if only to ensure that enough people have signed up and paid so that costs are covered.  That just seems sensible?

    If this is about the lateness of payment re Quad last weekend, I'd asked BH some weeks ago how much he needed, and his reply was that he was waiting for confirmation from Quad.  Agreed, we ended up speaking late last week to get it sorted (when he also explained the opaque price list from Quad and why he'd not been able to confirm it earlier), and that was all a bit last minute.  Perhaps that was my fault for not chasing and getting it sorted earlier, but it was sorted before any money had to be paid out.

    So - explicitly - no funds have been "withheld" from the organisers, even ignoring the fact that I have generally been one of those organises. 

    I can't really see why I'd do that, or why anyone would think that I would do that?

    If people aren't happy with the  process as-is, then payments could just as easily be collected by whoever wants to  volunteer to do that job.  It doesn't have to be me, and I'm more than happy for it not to be.  


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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 1774
    TTony said:


    “If people aren't happy”


    What on earth gives you the idea that people “aren’t happy”?...
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  • Right, this is getting silly. I just want to get back to making sure that Sasquatch in Feb is as awesome as the last one. 

    It's pretty clear that a number of attendees are concerned about transparency, and the only way to solve that is to publish a confirmed set of accounts. With that in mind, @TTony if you could transfer what's been collected for Feb to me and update the thread with my PayPal address (I believe you have it but if you want a reminder please drop me a PM), and if you would be kind enough to confirm that the paid attendee list is up to date, I'll start a new thread for income and expenditure. 

    I'll keep this up to date, and no decisions about spending will be made without referring to at least the other organisers, and ideally all attendees. 

    If there is a surplus at the end, I will ask for opinions and then a vote on what to do with it. 

    I honestly can't see a better way of doing this to move on.

    To be clear though, this thread didn't start with questions about money, and both @Bridgehouse and I sited other issues in our reasoning for stepping away. 

    My Trading Feedback    |    You Bring The Band

    Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you
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  • McTootMcToot Frets: 1121
    I've just been alerted to this thread by a forum friend. I was in Mumbai last week  getting drunk as a lord working my butt off and not keeping in touch with the Forum. 

    Its all all very depressing, but frankly not surprising. I hope that we find a way to keep these going without the graft of @Bridgehouse and @Legionreturns. Others may step up, the vibe could be maintained in some other way, but it's important that it just doesn't die off. 

    They are huge fun. They are challenging. They make me new friends. They give me the justification I need to keep playing, buying and geeking out with the kit. That's priceless  B)

    Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder


    My trading feedback  - I'm a good egg  ;) 

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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 16691
    Just in response to @Legionreturns message above - my original post was indeed not about the money. Yes, it's an additional stress, and some people have clearly identified some uncomfortableness with it, but my reasons for stepping aside are not to do with this. 

    I've stayed out out this thread as I felt it was the right thing to do. I'm very grateful to everyone who has said they have enjoyed the jams, and got a lot out of them. I'm really pleased that some people have said that they felt they were well organised, but most importantly, I'm pleased some of you have had an opportunity to do something that you haven't had a chance to do before. 

    To be clear, my reasons for not wishing to continue are:

    - First and foremost, it is just too difficult to enjoy the days as a punter does - it's a lot of work, and the expectation level is high so I've had to be on the ball all the time to make sure people do have a good day. It's a long travel, followed by a lot of rushing about, followed by a lot of post jam admin - not to mention all the admin beforehand. There's something distinctly off-putting about driving to a session and hoping the venue has set the rooms right/got the right rooms/remembered the booking etc. No amount of planning or prep makes those feelings go away. I'll be honest - for most of the jams, save for a few individuals who know who they are, I carry the can for the whole lot - there isn't a flood of offers of help - and the reality is, I'm not surprised, as to really help out would require more people to step up and carry the can entirely for some jams. 

    - It's clear that the jams are well received, but they will never be all things to all people. There will always be compromise, and that's something that is getting increasingly difficult to do. I know that @TTony has a desire for it to be more newcomer-friendly and to focus on that, but we also need our regulars and our experienced players to come and have a good time too - both for the benefit of the newcomers, and also for their own good - after all, they are paid up punters who aren't giving up their time or getting paid to help newcomers or those less experienced. That balance feels, at the moment, impossible to strike. For the jam days to succeed and for newcomers to feel that they can take those first tentative steps, they have to be relaxed, welcoming, stress free, and accommodating. I try very hard to do this on the day, but it's not sustainable. If we were to have over managed the days then I think everyone would have felt that they didn't have the right atmosphere to encourage and support in the way that they have. I don't know the answer to this - I've tried to strike a balance, but I get a lot of opinions from all sides, all different and all conflicting - it simply isn't possible to make everyone happy. I've received PM's, feedback in person and in threads, and outside of the fretboard that makes it clear that there's a distinct difference of opinion on what the jams should be and how they should work. 

    - The third reason is perhaps more difficult for me. As a primarily bass playing musician these days, my forum interactions are less about the core topics, and more periphery. Maybe I'm seen by some, or many as a bit of a joke. Maybe my posts often are attempts at humour, or passing off topic comments, but for whatever reason, I'm clearly not taken as seriously as I need to be for the good of the jams. However, the trickle of comments made to me both on here, and off here by members who don't even come to the jams is getting quite tiresome now. 

    Anyway, I've said my bit twice now, so I don't need to say it again. There's clearly a strength of feeling around the cash situation - and I can't say I disagree with it. It should be simple, non contentious and very open for all the community to see. I will say though, (and I mean no criticism of any individuals at all), that the money situation is always made more difficult by drop-outs - particularly last minute. There's nothing worse than having 20 sign ups with enough income to cover the costs, only for 5 to not show and not pay and leave it short. I would suggest that there is a mechanism in place to stop this from having an impact. I'd say the more open this is, the better - but it's not my place to suggest how this is achieved. 

    Ultimately though, if the jams are going to continue on a formal level - or "official" - then the community (including the Admins as a whole) all need to agree on exactly what it is going to do, how it's going to do it, and understand exactly what is expected of newcomers, experienced players, organisers, the admin team, and anyone else involved. As it stands, I've learned the hard way that one person can't do this - I can't set direction, decide on outcomes, organise, carry the can, and keep everyone happy. I thought I could, but nobody can - too hard. 
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 2325
    "Ultimately though, if the jams are going to continue on a formal level - or "official" - then the community (including the Admins as a whole) all need to agree on exactly what it is going to do, how it's going to do it, and understand exactly what is expected of newcomers, experienced players, organisers, the admin team, and anyone else involved. As it stands, I've learned the hard way that one person can't do this - I can't set direction, decide on outcomes, organise, carry the can, and keep everyone happy. I thought I could, but nobody can - too hard."

    Orrrr,

    We could all see that the jams are arranged by people for nothing out of the goodness of their heart for people who play instruments to do it together.  People could get off their high horse about where their money goes and stay out of it if they don't want to help with the organisation.

    People like me who just turn up have fun and go home happy should maybe pitch in more with the organisation and we should have a shabby round the edges, amateur, pirate radio type feel to the days where we all pitch up and if if it all goes wrong we sit in the car park and play acoustics or go to the pub.

    If that doesn't feel like fun to people they don't have to sign up.


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