What has Drew been up to?

monquixote

RMJ said:

The thing I struggle with about kids is everyone bleats on about how they are supposed to make you happy. In some cases yes, they make you feel happier than you've ever been. But in others they descend you into a pit of chaos and despair. I've not been able to strike the right balance in nearly 6 years and it takes it's toll. 

Anyone who tells you that is talking crap.

Studies have actually proven that kids make you less happy from a pure pleasure perspective, but give you a much greater sense of purpose and meaning.

So essentially you are choosing between meaningless pleasure, or purposeful strife. One is not better than the other, but you have to know which one you want.

This makes sense when you get someone like @octatonic who appears to have an autotelic personality and has no desire for children and also people like @WiresDreamDisasters ; or myself who are also somewhat like that and do have kids, but at times have struggled with it.

munckee

I gave up playing almost entirely for nearly 10 years after the kids were born and am much happier since making time to play again about 4 years ago.  That's what has to happen you have to make time, with headphones, quiet home amps, going out to jams etc.

WiresDreamDisasters

Jordan Peterson talks about responsibility being the thing that gives your life meaning. To bear a burden on your shoulders, and to do it proudly and with dignity.

Which is how I'm trying to tackle fatherhood.

I've had my years of pleasure. And at the time I didn't think it was meaningless, but it truly was.

munckee

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Jordan Peterson talks about responsibility being the thing that gives your life meaning. To bear a burden on your shoulders, and to do it proudly and with dignity.

Which is how I'm trying to tackle fatherhood.

I've had my years of pleasure. And at the time I didn't think it was meaningless, but it truly was.

This I entirely agree with, I consider myself a 'better' person all round since having kids, no matter what you can provide for them or how hard it is if you don't do it no-one else will.  If they need my money, advice, kidneys whatever that's what they'll get.

joneve

monquixote said:

RMJ said:

The thing I struggle with about kids is everyone bleats on about how they are supposed to make you happy. In some cases yes, they make you feel happier than you've ever been. But in others they descend you into a pit of chaos and despair. I've not been able to strike the right balance in nearly 6 years and it takes it's toll. 

Anyone who tells you that is talking crap.

Studies have actually proven that kids make you less happy from a pure pleasure perspective, but give you a much greater sense of purpose and meaning.

So essentially you are choosing between meaningless pleasure, or purposeful strife. One is not better than the other, but you have to know which one you want.

This makes sense when you get someone like @octatonic who appears to have an autotelic personality and has no desire for children and also people like @WiresDreamDisasters ; or myself who are also somewhat like that and do have kids, but at times have struggled with it.

Wis. 

The good times are great and I couldn't love my little boy any more than I do and don't resent him or regret the choice to have kids (it's a privilege, as some people who do, cannot)...but fuck me it's hard at times! 

joneve

crunchman said:

RMJ said:

The thing I struggle with about kids is everyone bleats on about how they are supposed to make you happy. In some cases yes, they make you feel happier than you've ever been. But in others they descend you into a pit of chaos and despair. I've not been able to strike the right balance in nearly 6 years and it takes it's toll. 

At 6, you might be close to being able to get some respite by letting them sit in front of Youtube for hours.  It's so tempting!

We are really having to ration their screen time.

Baby TV to the rescue when you need 5 mins to have a piss/make some food! I'm not even sorry. 

Handsome_Chris

thecolourbox said:

We've all been there, or if we haven't we will be at one point. You're not alone.

As a silly aside, I asked my Mrs to get me a CBT course for my 30th, but instead of realising I was asking for moped lessons she said "Can't you get that on the NHS?". Thankfully she didn't think I meant the other CBT...

Why?  What's wrong with computer based training?

monquixote

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Jordan Peterson talks about responsibility being the thing that gives your life meaning. To bear a burden on your shoulders, and to do it proudly and with dignity.

Which is how I'm trying to tackle fatherhood.

I've had my years of pleasure. And at the time I didn't think it was meaningless, but it truly was.

That's a really great way of looking at it.

I find some of Jordan Peterson's stuff a bit odd, but on the subject of taking responsibility he's putting out a message which people (especially young blokes) need and is missing from modern discourse.

mudslide73

Just getting back to something approaching normality after 13 years of Dad-dom. Only one kid too. I fully expect a difficult young adulthood for him also so I'm just trying to catch my breath. I'd still recommend it though.

octatonic

monquixote said:

RMJ said:

The thing I struggle with about kids is everyone bleats on about how they are supposed to make you happy. In some cases yes, they make you feel happier than you've ever been. But in others they descend you into a pit of chaos and despair. I've not been able to strike the right balance in nearly 6 years and it takes it's toll. 

Anyone who tells you that is talking crap.

Studies have actually proven that kids make you less happy from a pure pleasure perspective, but give you a much greater sense of purpose and meaning.

So essentially you are choosing between meaningless pleasure, or purposeful strife. One is not better than the other, but you have to know which one you want.

This makes sense when you get someone like @octatonic who appears to have an autotelic personality and has no desire for children and also people like @WiresDreamDisasters ; or myself who are also somewhat like that and do have kids, but at times have struggled with it.

I am not sure 'autotelic' completely describes me, but it is probably pretty close, mix in epicurean and you are probably there. 

If I found myself in the same situation then I'd try to have done as good a job as I could, but that didn't happen- although I certainly left relationships because I realised that it was inevitable.

I also had an overwhelming sense that it wasn't for me and this notion of having 'other things to do'.

I have all the sympathy in the world for men struggling with being fathers and I don't think it is easy.
I'm sure there are rewards but I didn't pay the price to receive them.
From time to time I have a momentary twinge of 'what if' and then get back to my life, which isn't too bad.

I'm 46 years old, and at an age where most of my friends are either right in the middle of raising children or about to pack them off to uni.
Some are now grandfathers.
That can be a bit weird when you never had kids.
Sometimes, as the childless friend, you are equal parts counsellor or refuge (usually involving alcohol- I must get my liver checked) and although some friends have expressed the notion that they wished they had never had kids I know they still love their kids and have ultimately done the best they could do.

Sporky

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Jordan Peterson talks about responsibility being the thing that gives your life meaning. To bear a burden on your shoulders, and to do it proudly and with dignity.

Which is how I'm trying to tackle fatherhood.

I've had my years of pleasure. And at the time I didn't think it was meaningless, but it truly was.

If I might make a suggestion, without any pretence of being an expert, certainly embrace the responsibility, but don't feel you're not also allowed pleasure. I'm inclined to think that the right balance of the two is where it's at, though I've no idea what that balance is.

@octatonic - your post stuck a very loud resonant chord with me.

octatonic

I tend to think we have psychological processes that allow us to be comfortable with whatever reality we happen to be experiencing.

I respect Drew's position but it implies that anyone who doesn't do X is living a meaningless life.

I don't buy into that (and I'm not sure that is what Drew is saying either, it is just how I interpret that statement).

It could be that my life is meaningless, but I don't feel like my life lacks meaning.
I mostly love what I do and how I live.

I do have some responsibilities outside myself- staff need to be paid and given a safe working environment, my mum needs to help from time to time but otherwise I guess I don't have many traditional *responsibilities* beyond paying bills and taxes.
I do things, as a rule, because I feel like I am building upon the things I've done previously- the worth in doing them is largely self-evident. 

Snap

Hi Drew, good to see you back and sounding very mellow and cool.

Parenthood - so many opinions on what it should be, shouldn't be. This in turn creates a pressure making you think you should have certain feelings about it, or should be doing stuff in a certain way and blathering on about how wonderful it all is. 

Reality is, you find your own path and hope it turns out OK. So may people get so stressed out about whether or not they are feeling/being the way it's expected.

For the record mate, I've always thought you were a good lad, and I'm going right back to the Amberience days here.

Peace out brother.....(that's me trying to be all cool and hip like cos I don't know how to sign this post off)

Sporky

Snap said:

Parenthood - so many opinions on what it should be, shouldn't be. 

To quote the great Mrs Bradley:

"There are three golden rules when raising a child; sadly, no-one knows what any of them are."

NelsonP

From memory most studies into what makes you happy have concluded that parenthood has no relationship, or maybe a slightly negative one with happiness. 

Keeping healthy, being happily married (or in a long term partnership), keeping up with friends and having enough money (not necessarily being rich) are much more important 'predictors' of happiness in the long run.

If you really want to be happy, move to Scotland
https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/nesscontent/dvc238/index.html

Parenthood is bloody hard and extremely rewarding in equal measures. But at least your genes get to stay on the planet after you've gone, so there's that.

jonnyburgo

Keep up the positives mate, rumination is a fucker and totally pointless, the enemy of progression, what’s done is done mate, crack on.

monquixote

octatonic said:

I tend to think we have psychological processes that allow us to be comfortable with whatever reality we happen to be experiencing.

I respect Drew's position but it implies that anyone who doesn't do X is living a meaningless life.

I don't buy into that (and I'm not sure that is what Drew is saying either, it is just how I interpret that statement).

It could be that my life is meaningless, but I don't feel like my life lacks meaning.
I mostly love what I do and how I live.

I do have some responsibilities outside myself- staff need to be paid and given a safe working environment, my mum needs to help from time to time but otherwise I guess I don't have many traditional *responsibilities* beyond paying bills and taxes.
I do things, as a rule, because I feel like I am building upon the things I've done previously- the worth in doing them is largely self-evident. 

That's why I described you as autotelic.

Children give you externalised meaning without them you can get to the end of the education treadmil and fall into a kind of nihilistic or hedonistic despair. That's why kids or joining the army works so well for some  people. People who dont go that route need to decide where meaning comes from for them like art or starting a business etc.

ourmaninthenorth

Isn't music a great antedote.

I'm as mad as a cut snake on occasion, tuck a guitar under me arm, and I can somehow work it out. Solitude is my friend in those times.


You're a fine musician Drew. Keep punching. 

Samgb

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Jordan Peterson talks about responsibility being the thing that gives your life meaning. To bear a burden on your shoulders, and to do it proudly and with dignity.

Which is how I'm trying to tackle fatherhood.

I've had my years of pleasure. And at the time I didn't think it was meaningless, but it truly was.

Nicely put. And kind of lovely.

Even though i dislike Jordan Peterson's politics intensely i dont disagree with this.

Samgb

Sporky said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Jordan Peterson talks about responsibility being the thing that gives your life meaning. To bear a burden on your shoulders, and to do it proudly and with dignity.

Which is how I'm trying to tackle fatherhood.

I've had my years of pleasure. And at the time I didn't think it was meaningless, but it truly was.

If I might make a suggestion, without any pretence of being an expert, certainly embrace the responsibility, but don't feel you're not also allowed pleasure. I'm inclined to think that the right balance of the two is where it's at, though I've no idea what that balance is.

@octatonic - your post stuck a very loud resonant chord with me.

This too. It shouldn't always feel like this monumental Sisyphean task. It's ok to sometimes be good at parenting and then other times be a bit shit. I feel like the internet and facebook in particular has turned into a ra-ra look how perfect i am at this environment and it is such bullshit. I look back at my own parents in retrospect and can see the stuff where they made mistakes but i never doubted at the time that they loved me and my brother and we were happy. Can you ask more than that? 

When we farm our kids out to the grandparents or whatever we end up missing them anyway! Having kids is like being a reformed smackhead. You were desperate to get some free time/kick the habit but when they are gone you miss them terribly and realise that they are the centre of your life!