What is wrong with Jimmy Pages guitar tone?

monquixote

Wisdom for that. 

The great thing about Pages tone is that it gets the hell out of the way of the bass and drums. 

You listen to the intro of Whole Lotta Love and it sounds weedy and thin (deliberately) until the rhythm section kick in and it sounds massive because everything has it's own space. 

Same with Nile and Bernard thin cutting guitar and fat bass.

richardhomer

ICBM;217227" said:

A lot of other players recorded some of their best tones with Customs too.

Always liked the 'Frampton Comes Alive' LP tones. I believe that was a '54 Custom routed and fitted with PAFs. This would have had an ebony 'board and no maple cap, presumably.

Am I right in thinking that Customs weren't built with maple caps until they were reissued in '68? I assume Page's is/was a 'proper' old one (ie from the 50s), which would account for some of the tonal difference, compared to his Standard?

ICBM

I know I've said this before and attracted abuse for it, but the same is true of Tony Iommi. The hugeness and heaviness in the sound of Sabbath is the interplay between the guitar and the bass, and the rhythm and timing. If you listen to the guitar by itself it's actually a thin, quite trebly (certainly lacking bottom end, even if not always 'bright') sound - although clearly played loud and with a lot of aggression.

I still think Page's tone is often unnecessarily thin and buzzy though.

richardhomer said:

Always liked the 'Frampton Comes Alive' LP tones. I believe that was a '54 Custom routed and fitted with PAFs. This would have had an ebony 'board and no maple cap, presumably.

Am I right in thinking that Customs weren't built with maple caps until they were reissued in '68? I assume Page's is/was a 'proper' old one (ie from the 50s), which would account for some of the tonal difference, compared to his Standard?

Yes, the 50s Customs - whichever pickups they had - were solid mahogany.

Keef recorded some of the best Stones tones, in the Mick Taylor era, with either a '54-style (Alnico/P90) or a '57-style (3-HB) Custom too.

xSkarloey

@ICBM right on cue you come to rescue as I was thinking of "For Your Life" at the O2, which was Pagey playing...a custom. It's a recreation of the one he had nicked in 1969/70, which was a 50's model, so I assume it's all mahogany. 

Either way I love his tone on this. I'd be happy playing through this set up with that sound! To my ears it's got a lovely, gritty full range,  quite toppy, but balanced with a lot of bass. And far from playing through the cheapest amps he could buy he's going through a couple of Orange AD30 heads, Petersburg JP100's, a Marshall Super Lead, through Marshall and ENGL cabs. 

He even has the Echoplex on for the solo, which I really, really like. 

 

Headphones

Just finished watching Celebration, and have to agree with the starting view here.  The guitar tone is awful.  90% of the time it's so drenched in effects (phasers, flangers and rotovibes, that he didn't use in the Zep days) that he could be playing almost anything...

JPJ and Bonzo Junior really did the job though and held the songs together, while Percy did Ok.

The thin tone is certainly part of the Zep dynamic, but this doesn't even get close to that meshing.

Celebration should have stayed in the can.

shaunm

I have to agree with whats been said about the huge sound being a result of the whole band and not just Pageys guitar. His arrangements have a lot to do with this also inho. He certainly utilised the fact he had maybe the best rhythm section rock has seen (as did Clapton in cream). I have always thought that my favourite tone of Jimmys was his cleans, they always sounded amazing to my ears. The chord voicing s he chose made his guitar chime. On the celebration day tone..... It's the same as much of the later day stuff, not to my tastes and a little bit fuzzy.

EricTheWeary

Got it on the televisual box now. God bless bank holidays.
So far so much modulation...Orge amps though, titter...

I went to see Fred Zeppelin a few years ago and it was a bit of a revelation. I suddenly got that Zep were about the bass and drums and that years of hearing them thru weedy hi fi systems had hidden how they really worked.

And yes the early Sabbath sound was quite timid by modern standards. When I saw them last year it was much cleaner than you might expect, but then the complicated stuff didn't turn to mush and it worked.

Fretwired

Lots of valid points made above. I also think you need to factor in lack of practice and preparation time - this was a short notice one-off gig not a world tour. Page also hasn't done any serious touring for years and the O2 is not the greatest venue sound wise. Page and Plant also insisted the DVD was never going to be released. There is agreement that the DVD sound was badly mixed.

HD Tracks offer a better mixed audiophile 48kHz/24bit version [audio only] for die hard Zep fans which is supposed to be good.

http://www.hdtracks.com/celebration-day

monquixote

Fretwired said:

HD Tracks offer a better mixed audiophile 48kHz/24bit version [audio only] for die hard Zep fans which is supposed to be good.

http://www.hdtracks.com/celebration-day

Doesn't that fall foul of the garbage in garbage out principle. 

Bad tone at higher resolution isn't going to get any better.

Fretwired

monquixote said:

Fretwired said:

HD Tracks offer a better mixed audiophile 48kHz/24bit version [audio only] for die hard Zep fans which is supposed to be good.

http://www.hdtracks.com/celebration-day

Doesn't that fall foul of the garbage in garbage out principle. 

Bad tone at higher resolution isn't going to get any better.

I've not heard it myself but, for example, the guys on the NAIM audiophile forum [hi-fi geeks] swear it's much better than the standard DVD/CD. You may just get a higher quality of naff guitar tone but I bought the CD/DVD package of Celebration Day and the CD mix is truly horrible.

richardhomer

Fretwired;217524" said:

the guys on the NAIM audiophile forum [hi-fi geeks] swear it's much better than the standard DVD/CD. You may just get a higher quality of naff guitar tone but I bought the CD/DVD package of Celebration Day and the CD mix is truly horrible.

Naim electronics polarise opinion also.

It is generally accepted that their amplifiers present 'Pace, rhythm and timing' at the expense of neutrality.

With digital sources I find them unlistenably 'hard' sounding. It seems appropriate that a Naim fan would like Page's tone, regardless of the mix....

DrBob

I work for the company that did the screens and whilst I didn't manage to blag my way in for the gig I did volunteer to drop off some kit and time that so I caught the sound check.

I thought his guitar sound was s***e and said so but then I'm known amongst my colleagues as being the embittered, failed musician so my opinion was poo poohed as 'Sour Grapes' from the frustrated bedroom guitarist...

Meh !

randomhandclaps

I think we also have to factor in that is Jimmy Page, so it's more likely that he is right and every other one of us is wrong in some way.

monquixote

Fretwired said:

monquixote said:

Fretwired said:

HD Tracks offer a better mixed audiophile 48kHz/24bit version [audio only] for die hard Zep fans which is supposed to be good.

http://www.hdtracks.com/celebration-day

Doesn't that fall foul of the garbage in garbage out principle. 

Bad tone at higher resolution isn't going to get any better.

I've not heard it myself but, for example, the guys on the NAIM audiophile forum [hi-fi geeks] swear it's much better than the standard DVD/CD. You may just get a higher quality of naff guitar tone but I bought the CD/DVD package of Celebration Day and the CD mix is truly horrible.

My mate the audiophile phoned me the other day and I said "I've heard this hilarious joke". He said "Don't bother I won't find it funny over this low bitrate phone codec"

usedtobe

I grew up on Zeppelin, but I think I'll probably give this a miss - just to be on the safe side. My expectations were pretty low from the day the gig was announced, tbh..

randomhandclaps

usedtobe said:

My expectations were pretty low from the day the gig was announced, tbh..

I just think it was great that lot's of genuine lifetime Led Zep fans got to see them!  It would have been horrid had this turned into some industry love-in full of posers and fashionistas.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5clr2NWuk1rwcc6bo1_500.gif

 

Fretwired

richardhomer said:

Fretwired;217524" said:

the guys on the NAIM audiophile forum [hi-fi geeks] swear it's much better than the standard DVD/CD. You may just get a higher quality of naff guitar tone but I bought the CD/DVD package of Celebration Day and the CD mix is truly horrible.

Naim electronics polarise opinion also.

It is generally accepted that their amplifiers present 'Pace, rhythm and timing' at the expense of neutrality.

With digital sources I find them unlistenably 'hard' sounding. It seems appropriate that a Naim fan would like Page's tone, regardless of the mix....

I didn't say they liked the guitar tone. In fact I said you'd probably get a higher quality of naff guitar tone. It is generally accepted by loads of people, including me, that the standard CD is one of the worst mixed live recordings ever. You can simply compare it to the DVD which is superior. I was merely pointing out that there is a highly quality recording with a different mix for the die hard Zep fans.

Fact is there just wasn't enough time to put this together. In the normal course of events a band would practise for months and if they were going on a world-wide tour they'd be able to afford a top notch crew. Issues and problems would be ironed out along the way and any resulting live album could be made up from a number of different performances.

I agree about Page's tone but Bonham's drums are a shambles in places and sadly he's not a patch on his late father. I think Plant is right not to want to tour.

DrBob

randomhandclaps;217581" said:

usedtobe said:

My expectations were pretty low from the day the gig was announced, tbh..

I just think it was great that lot's of genuine lifetime Led Zep fans got to see them!  It would have been horrid had this turned into some industry love it full of posers and fashionistas.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5clr2NWuk1rwcc6bo1_500.gif

 

We got some comp's to the gig as a consequence of being one of the key suppliers to the show and blow me if the PLC that owns us didn't schedule a 2 day management meeting that coincided with this gig meaning that all of our global senior management team (almost to a man, men in their fifties) 'happened' to be in the South of England and therefore able to take one of the comps....

richardhomer

Fretwired;217583" said:

I didn't say they liked the guitar tone. In fact I said you'd probably get a higher quality of naff guitar tone.

Sorry - I was not suggesting that you did like Page's tone (though you are perfectly entitled to, if you do).

The point I was making was that Naim electronics are not to my taste - the same as Page's tone isn't. I find both harsh/unlistenable.

I probably didn't articulate it as well I should have....

p90fool

It's a valid point that guitar tone has to be compromised to fit in a mix, especially with a powerful rhythm section, but they just played Substitute by The Who on the radio and all three instruments sound huge, both individually and together.

Led Zep were probably too wasted or pissed to lock together like that most of the time.