Wet Dry Set up - any thoughts before I rip my pedal board apart?

What's Hot
rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 648

Evening all.

I am about to reconfigure my pedal board to a wet dry set up. Before I do, I figured I might run it past you folks to see if there are any suggestions for improvement or gremlins to avoid.

Current set up

Guitar in > Envelope Filter > Wah > Tuner > MXR EVH Phase90 > Keeley Compressor > Pog > Soul Food > King of Tone > TC Electronic spark boost > Boss Noise gate > Into Marshall Amp

Amp FX Send > Voodoo Lab Micro Vibe > H9 > Ditto looper  > Amp FX Return

As you might notice, its all a bit conventional in that most fx are in the front while modulation is on the loop. The H9 is used for a variety of delays, reverbs and chorus type sounds depending on song.

Proposed set up

All the front end as above i.e. all into the Marshall pre amp

Amp FX Send > Lehle P Split

From the Lehle the Original signal will go to Voodoo Lab Micro Vibe > H9 > Ditto looper  > Amp FX Return (i.e. is now the Wet signal ) while the isolated signal (i.e. dry) will go to the FX return of AMP #2 (Currently a Sessionette 75)

My thinking for this is:

  • All signal uses/benefits from the Marshall preamp (valve) sound as the base sound, so its a uniform and consistent tone
  • To 'balance' the sound, all I need to do is adjust the relative master volumes of the 2 amps for the specific location
  • The sessionette is quite 'immediate' and suited to giving me a dry/attacky sound
  • The Marshall goes into a 4 x 10 so will help spread ambience
  • If I am tight for space at a gig/rehersal - I can simply go without the dry amp as it would be effectively identical to what I have now

I need to get a load of new patch leads made up so I can't experiment quite yet - hence the thinking out loud

Final question - where might a nice new Tremolo best sit in that signal path? I am guessing as part of the front end...

Thanks

0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Comments

  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 213
    edited January 2
    Hi @rsvmark ;;

    Couple of things;

    1. Part of the beauty of wet/dry is the use of different amps and the mix this allows - I'd defo be tempted to have a go using this conventionally to save all the faffing with the amp loop etc. Not saying it won't work but you may be surprised at how well a standard setup works even with your Sessionette
    2. Beware that some pedals flip the signal phase - only need to worry about anything after your Lehle. See the following https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/list-the-pedals-that-invert-phase.796444/ 
    3. I've found trem works best just into the wet amp tbh.. 

    Hope that helps,

    Si
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • keirkeir Frets: 53
    Hi @rsvmark ;;

    Couple of things;

    1. Part of the beauty of wet/dry is the use of different amps and the mix this allows - I'd defo be tempted to have a go using this conventionally to save all the faffing with the amp loop etc. Not saying it won't work but you may be surprised at how well a standard setup works even with your Sessionette
    2. Beware that some pedals flip the signal phase - only need to worry about anything after your Lehle. See the following https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/list-the-pedals-that-invert-phase.796444/ 
    3. I've found trem works best just into the wet amp tbh.. 

    Hope that helps,

    Si
    Great info. I think the DMM and EP boost have been the source of my wet / dry woes, if only I’d known about this 2 years ago!
    Good deals with: handsomerick, majorscale, gassage, sticker, smudge_lad, anglian, edinfield99, thewiddler, thomfripp, notonlybutalso, JDE, chebellanga
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 648
    Hi @rsvmark ;;

    Couple of things;

    1. Part of the beauty of wet/dry is the use of different amps and the mix this allows - I'd defo be tempted to have a go using this conventionally to save all the faffing with the amp loop etc. Not saying it won't work but you may be surprised at how well a standard setup works even with your Sessionette
    2. Beware that some pedals flip the signal phase - only need to worry about anything after your Lehle. See the following https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/list-the-pedals-that-invert-phase.796444/ 
    3. I've found trem works best just into the wet amp tbh.. 

    Hope that helps,

    Si
    @grappagreen ;
    Thanks. So the 'conventional' set up Is fx into the front end of both amps? And you are suggesting this might be ok? (My original thinking was to use the Marshall preamp tone) But am guessing it might be better to deliberately mix slightly different map tones?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • pmgpmg Frets: 230
    keir said:
    Hi @rsvmark ;;

    Couple of things;

    1. Part of the beauty of wet/dry is the use of different amps and the mix this allows - I'd defo be tempted to have a go using this conventionally to save all the faffing with the amp loop etc. Not saying it won't work but you may be surprised at how well a standard setup works even with your Sessionette
    2. Beware that some pedals flip the signal phase - only need to worry about anything after your Lehle. See the following https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/list-the-pedals-that-invert-phase.796444/ 
    3. I've found trem works best just into the wet amp tbh.. 

    Hope that helps,

    Si
    Great info. I think the DMM and EP boost have been the source of my wet / dry woes, if only I’d known about this 2 years ago!
    Woes?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 213
    edited January 2
    @rsvmark ;;;;;

    Guitar in > Envelope Filter > Wah > Tuner > Keeley Compressor > Pog > Soul Food > King of Tone > TC Electronic spark boost > Boss Noise gate > Lehle iso out to dry amp - (this is the split point; all stuff after this goes to wet amp only)>MXR EVH Phase 90>Voodoo Lab Micro Vibe > H9>wet amp. I've moved the MXR but you don't need to if you like the sound of it into drives..

    If you're using a looper then patch in as above order (with Lehle in it's own loop) and you can then switch the Lehle in/out to add/remove dry amp. If you're not using a looper with that lot I'd be getting one!

    I suggest you then leave all fx out and with both speaker cabs next to each other flip the phase switch on the Lehle - select the setting with most bass. Then play to your heart out! You may want to select each of the wet effects on an individual basis and hit the phase switch on the Lehle to check nothing is flipping signal polarity - use your ears. If nothing is strange you're good to go and you can pop the Lehle phase back to the setting you had when you initially tested with no wet FX.

    With the trem into wet amp only I tend to have a trem set permanently on but at a very subtle setting. This is hardly noticeable (until you turn it off) but sounds ace imho

    Hope this helps,

    Si
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 213
    edited January 2
    keir said:
    Hi @rsvmark ;;;;

    Couple of things;

    1. Part of the beauty of wet/dry is the use of different amps and the mix this allows - I'd defo be tempted to have a go using this conventionally to save all the faffing with the amp loop etc. Not saying it won't work but you may be surprised at how well a standard setup works even with your Sessionette
    2. Beware that some pedals flip the signal phase - only need to worry about anything after your Lehle. See the following https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/list-the-pedals-that-invert-phase.796444/ 
    3. I've found trem works best just into the wet amp tbh.. 

    Hope that helps,

    Si
    Great info. I think the DMM and EP boost have been the source of my wet / dry woes, if only I’d known about this 2 years ago!
    The EP boost should only have had an impact if it was after the split. Anything before this doesn't matter (even if it flips phase) as it's going to both amps and hence both will be in phase with each other.

    SI
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 348
    I thought wet/dry could be achieved using 1 amp and 2 cabs, granted some sort of power amp would be required.

    Didn't EVH do something like this?

    Variac'd Marshall to load box/signal tap. Dry signal to one cab, tapped signal to effects, then solidvstate power amp and second cab?

    He ended up with a WDW rig that used an H3000 and sent one harmoniser pitch shift to the left cab, another to the right, and the centre cab was dry.

    Never done a WD rig btw, so prob the above is wrong, but interested in how it's set up.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 213
    edited January 2

    @tekbow ;;

    I used to use a single Bogner head with a Suhr iso line out into stereo FX, Velocity stereo power amp and then into two separate 1 x 12 cabs for w/d/w (with 2x12 for Boggy dry)

    You could do the same for w/d as you suggest but the real beauty of two amps is getting two that work well together and blending to taste.

    Wet/dry with two amps is more practical and sounds brill.

    Si
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 348
    @grappagreen only one amp at the moment sadly, and likely to remain so for a long time. could justify a second 212 and some sort of power amp possibly.

    That being said I'd love to pair a bogner with my current amp... big fan of Jerry Cantrell early tones...
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 648
    @grappagreen ;
    thanks mate- most helpful. I will try that out over the coming evenings. Just waiting for a new set of patch leads to arrive
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 213
    edited January 3
    @rsvmark ;;;

    No problem.

    Last piece of advice would be that before you start with the board build etc. just start with two amps and the Lehle. Plumb this in i.e. iso output to Marshall (dry), other output to Sessionette (wet) and get it up and running. Do the phase check at this point and set an amp balance. I would then actually plug everything on the wet side in (adding each pedal individually) until you're happy that it all works; then build your board proper. This may save you some head scratching and frustration..

    Let us know how it goes..

    Si
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 213
    tekbow said:
    @grappagreen only one amp at the moment sadly, and likely to remain so for a long time. could justify a second 212 and some sort of power amp possibly.

    That being said I'd love to pair a bogner with my current amp... big fan of Jerry Cantrell early tones...
    Understood. A point I would make about all of this stuff (and trust me I've been down the rabbit hole here) is that whatever you end up with needs to be practical. I gave up on all of the w/d/w rack stuff, single amp into solid state power amp etc because whilst it sounded great it just wasn't a practical gigging platform for me. My current environment is a pedal board and 2 off 1x12 combo's. I can set up/break down in no time and it sounds inspiring to play. Not saying it's not fun to do but eventually the fun wears off if it's a ball ache, there's no room for your kit, and the guy playing before you with LP/Marshall and nothing else blows you away :)

    It's also worth remembering that if you're playing mic'd gigs then you're also entering a potential world of pain with the sound engineer. You'll probably only end up with the wet amp going through FOH and a sad feeling in your heart..

    Si
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 648
    tekbow said:
    @grappagreen only one amp at the moment sadly, and likely to remain so for a long time. could justify a second 212 and some sort of power amp possibly.

    That being said I'd love to pair a bogner with my current amp... big fan of Jerry Cantrell early tones...
    Understood. A point I would make about all of this stuff (and trust me I've been down the rabbit hole here) is that whatever you end up with needs to be practical. I gave up on all of the w/d/w rack stuff, single amp into solid state power amp etc because whilst it sounded great it just wasn't a practical gigging platform for me. My current environment is a pedal board and 2 off 1x12 combo's. I can set up/break down in no time and it sounds inspiring to play. Not saying it's not fun to do but eventually the fun wears off if it's a ball ache, there's no room for your kit, and the guy playing before you with LP/Marshall and nothing else blows you away :)

    It's also worth remembering that if you're playing mic'd gigs then you're also entering a potential world of pain with the sound engineer. You'll probably only end up with the wet amp going through FOH and a sad feeling in your heart..

    Si
    All good points Si which is why I am retaining the Marshall as wet and 'main' amp. I can then simply not use the dry amp is there is not enough space or issues with miking up. All I would do is to add the dry to taste logistics permitting
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • keirkeir Frets: 53
    Another thing to bear in mind for wet / dry is that if you have all your delays / modulation set up for wet dry you will have your mix set much higher, then when you switch back to one amp for whatever reason you need to dial everything back.

    Not too bad if you are using mostly analogue pedals but when you get into having a loop switcher with the big Strymons or other preset ready pedals going back to one amp  requires a whole new set of presets all round, otherwise everything turns into a big wall of mush. 

    I think micing 2 amps on the fly on stage is also quite problematic as you may run into phase issues, not very up on the ins and outs of that though so maybe someone else could help clarify...

    My band was watching some videos back of our live performances and when I was using just my AC30, a year before in the same venue, it sounded great, nice full tone etc. My last gig which was with 2 amps, I sounded much thinner and brighter. I remember it sounding ok on stage but through front of house I sounded markedly worse. 
    Good deals with: handsomerick, majorscale, gassage, sticker, smudge_lad, anglian, edinfield99, thewiddler, thomfripp, notonlybutalso, JDE, chebellanga
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 213
    @keir - the wet level thing is a very valid point and it's a pain as you say with anything that is 'programmed'. Stuff with a mix knob wins the day here..

    The issue with micing up two amps is again phase related - the sound guy needs to mic up both cabs and then check the phase by flipping one channel on the desk. Getting two mic's up is tough enough most of the time..

    Si
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 648
    @keir ;

    I had thought of that so here is my plan-

    the wet (main) amp will be set at sorta 60% master volume while the dry will be say 40%. The plan is that the wet fx (delays, verbs, chorus, vibe and tremolo) will still be the majority of the sound while the dry 'supplements' the wet. Having tried an amp only set up to test the phases, the session is much brighter than the Marshall. If the session dominates the sound, it's lacking in bottom end, while if it's Marshall only, it's lacking 'bite'. So far so good.

    I have a variety of delays and verbs I use, pre programmed in the H9. My plan is to modify each patch so that the expression pedal controls the mix. Heel down will be the 'base' setting , ie what I have now, and then toe down will become wetter and wetter to taste. If this doesn't work out I will set up a duplicate set of patches, one for wet only and one for wet/dry.

    Does that kind of make sense?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • keirkeir Frets: 53
    It’s a case of trial and error really but a contingency plan is definitely needed in case of one amp breaking down either before or mid gig and then you’re good to go. 


    Good deals with: handsomerick, majorscale, gassage, sticker, smudge_lad, anglian, edinfield99, thewiddler, thomfripp, notonlybutalso, JDE, chebellanga
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • hotpickupshotpickups Frets: 1003
    If you need a splitter with phase switch then I may have one I'm selling soon 
    Link to my trading feedback:  http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/59452/
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 648
    If you need a splitter with phase switch then I may have one I'm selling soon 


    Thanks for the offer but I have the lehle p split, which is really good. It is passive so requires no power, and has ground and phase switches. It is very low profile and is supplied with screws and spacers to fix direct to your pedal board. Recommended product.


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 348
    edited January 5
    So this thread has got me thinking, and I figured I'd query here instead of a whole new thread.

    At the minute, I've got what I've got, and there won't be a second amp or cab for the foreseeable future for various reasons but....

    A single amp, single cab wet/dry setup.

    I've got an oversized 212 cab with 120w speakers, I've got an amp with an adjustable level slave out and an FX loop bypass switch that I kinda prefer to be engaged. There's one speaker out as the other is occupied by the FX loop bypass.

    The 212 used to be a combo cab, which Im converting to a closed back standalone cab.

    Here's my thinking, have a mono/stereo jack plate installed on the closed back that's being made for the cab. One speaker is fed from the amp speaker out, the other from the slave out via FX, and a standalone power amp.

    The only thing the cab builder has mentioned is that if the circuit board in the jack plate goes, you could have impedance issue that may damage the amp.

    However if you have 2 x 8ohm speakers wired in parallel for stereo (is that right?) Then even if the circuit board fails (the electronic) implications of which, I don't know), the impedance would still remain at 8 ohms?


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 4206
    tekbow said:
    So this thread has got me thinking, and I figured I'd query here instead of a whole new thread.

    At the minute, I've got what I've got, and there won't be a second amp or cab for the foreseeable future for various reasons but....

    A single amp, single cab wet/dry setup.

    I've got an oversized 212 cab with 120w speakers, I've got an amp with an adjustable level slave out and an FX loop bypass switch that I kinda prefer to be engaged. There's one speaker out as the other is occupied by the FX loop bypass.

    The 212 used to be a combo cab, which Im converting to a closed back standalone cab.

    Here's my thinking, have a mono/stereo jack plate installed on the closed back that's being made for the cab. One speaker is fed from the amp speaker out, the other from the slave out via FX, and a standalone power amp.

    The only thing the cab builder has mentioned is that if the circuit board in the jack plate goes, you could have impedance issue that may damage the amp.

    However if you have 2 x 8ohm speakers wired in parallel for stereo (is that right?) Then even if the circuit board fails (the electronic) implications of which, I don't know), the impedance would still remain at 8 ohms?


    The speakers would have to be separated to be stereo. 
    So the impedance would be at the individual rating for the speakers. 

    I think the main issue with those mono/stereo switches is that they can fail open circuit thus leaving your valve amp without any load at all.

    Which is bad.  

    However a speaker cable can fail with about as much chance, given its life of being plugged/unplugged chucked in the box, trodden on etc etc. 
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • GadgetGadget Frets: 622
    tekbow said:
    ... At the minute, I've got what I've got, and there won't be a second amp or cab for the foreseeable future...

    ...speaker is fed from the amp speaker out, the other from the slave out via FX, and a standalone power amp...
    Forgive me for not understanding: are you talking about using just one amp, as per your first statement, or getting another slave amp to use, as per your later statement?


    I think, therefore.... I... ummmm........
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • tekbowtekbow Frets: 348
    edited January 8
    Sorry, missed this. Got caught up in guitar and amp rating.

    @professorben ah ok, I'll just go with a mono jack plate then, and wait until the expiration of the wifely disapproval on further gear aquistions to get another cab. Or even a pair of 1x12's for a WDW.

    @gadget. I was referring to driving a WD setup from a single amp, rather than amp blending with 2 independent heads with a AB/Y, one dry and one wet.

    I mentioned stretching to a standalone power amp (plenty suitable solid state ones cheap on ebay) to drive a slave out via effects into a stereo 212.

    But not gona do that now.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 648
    Just finished re wiring it and I am very pleased. It sounds bigger, even at home volume levels. The amps appear to complement each other well and my 60/40 plan seems to be about right.

    Another good outcome is that as the looper is on the wet side so sounds really good for practicing. Happy happy here
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • GadgetGadget Frets: 622
    rsvmark said:
    Just finished re wiring it and I am very pleased. It sounds bigger, even at home volume levels. The amps appear to complement each other well and my 60/40 plan seems to be about right.

    Another good outcome is that as the looper is on the wet side so sounds really good for practicing. Happy happy here
    Time for a video demo then... :)
    I think, therefore.... I... ummmm........
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • rsvmarkrsvmark Frets: 648
    Gadget said:
    rsvmark said:
    Just finished re wiring it and I am very pleased. It sounds bigger, even at home volume levels. The amps appear to complement each other well and my 60/40 plan seems to be about right.

    Another good outcome is that as the looper is on the wet side so sounds really good for practicing. Happy happy here
    Time for a video demo then... :)
    Lol- if only I was that technically competent! I struggle to post photos let alone a video that is even a vague resemblance to how it sounds!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
  • grappagreengrappagreen Frets: 213
    rsvmark said:
    Just finished re wiring it and I am very pleased. It sounds bigger, even at home volume levels. The amps appear to complement each other well and my 60/40 plan seems to be about right.

    Another good outcome is that as the looper is on the wet side so sounds really good for practicing. Happy happy here
    Great stuff..
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom · Share on Facebook Share on Twitter
Sign In or Register to comment.