Floyd Rose - What guage strings?

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  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 911
    I think there might be a bit of an overall confusion regarding string tensions which I think is due to a sweeping generalisation I’m about to make. 

    Most guys that have floyd loaded guitars are rock/metal players, and therefore prob have fender scale floyds and Gibson scale Les Pauls. 

    Sweeping enough? 

    A 9 gauge string has the same tension to reach a specific pitch regardless of the method of anchoring, the thing that affects tension is string length, the natural ‘give’ in a trem will mean you have to bend further to reach a higher pitch than you would with a fixed bridge.

    Personally ive found that higher actions can feel easier to bend than super low, but I believe that’s to do with how much leverage your finger can get on the string. 
    Doesn't hold water with me I'm afraid. I only have one Gibson scale guitar atm but several 25" and 25.5" scale guitars. Some have FR's and some don't but I definitely feel the FR guitars have slightly more string tension (all using the same gauge and tuning). I don't have an explanation for it but it seems real.

    In answer to the other point above, setting up a Floyd is easy (i.e. no more difficult than any other two point trem) except for setting intonation which is a bit of a pig!
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 5105
    edited January 2019
    drwiddly said:
    I think there might be a bit of an overall confusion regarding string tensions which I think is due to a sweeping generalisation I’m about to make. 

    Most guys that have floyd loaded guitars are rock/metal players, and therefore prob have fender scale floyds and Gibson scale Les Pauls. 

    Sweeping enough? 

    A 9 gauge string has the same tension to reach a specific pitch regardless of the method of anchoring, the thing that affects tension is string length, the natural ‘give’ in a trem will mean you have to bend further to reach a higher pitch than you would with a fixed bridge.

    Personally ive found that higher actions can feel easier to bend than super low, but I believe that’s to do with how much leverage your finger can get on the string. 
    Doesn't hold water with me I'm afraid. I only have one Gibson scale guitar atm but several 25" and 25.5" scale guitars. Some have FR's and some don't but I definitely feel the FR guitars have slightly more string tension (all using the same gauge and tuning). I don't have an explanation for it but it seems real.

    In answer to the other point above, setting up a Floyd is easy (i.e. no more difficult than any other two point trem) except for setting intonation which is a bit of a pig!
    I know exactly what situation you are feeling right now, I’ve been down a very similar road myself and in that instance I was also, as you are.

    wrong. 

    ;-)

    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • I have 10s on everything from My pre cu22 to my 24 fret, Floyd loaded suhr modern.


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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    drwiddly said:

    Doesn't hold water with me I'm afraid. I only have one Gibson scale guitar atm but several 25" and 25.5" scale guitars. Some have FR's and some don't but I definitely feel the FR guitars have slightly more string tension (all using the same gauge and tuning). I don't have an explanation for it but it seems real.
    It's because the strings are locked exactly at both ends of the vibrating string, so there is no extended length to take up some of the force when you bend - all other systems have at least some.

    The *static* tension of the string is exactly the same for any given gauge, scale length and tuning, but it's the stiffness when bending - and to a smaller extent when fretting, which also bends the string - which alters the perception of tension. A trem does move forward when you bend so will feel looser than a hardtail, but a guitar with a Floyd feels stiffer than a non-locking trem because of the nut clamp.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 911
    Thank you @ICBM that's a good explanation. 

    Seems it it may be you who is wrong @professorben?

    ;)
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  • andypandyp Frets: 332
    Interesting reading this thread.

    I’m a Novice, but have found I much prefer 10-46 on my FR San Dimas to the 9-42 it came with and that I stuck with for a year. It feels much better to me and I was expecting to hate  the heavier strings as I am used to my SG with 10s and thought I’d find them too stiff on longer scale length.

    I adjusted the claw and found a wee tweak to the truss rod was needed as it was buzzing a bit too much.
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  • drwiddly said:
    Thank you @ICBM that's a good explanation. 

    Seems it it may be you who is wrong @professorben?

    ;)
    Nope. 

    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    It's also true that some people perceive a stiffer string without extended length at the ends as *easier* to bend because it reaches pitch more quickly, and vice versa.

    But the strings *are* stiffer on a Floyd-type double-locking system, in that the tension rises faster as you bend. It's simple physics.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ICBM said:
    It's also true that some people perceive a stiffer string without extended length at the ends as *easier* to bend because it reaches pitch more quickly, and vice versa.

    But the strings *are* stiffer on a Floyd-type double-locking system, in that the tension rises faster as you bend. It's simple physics.
    Hmmmmmmm
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • I don't deviate from basing the choice on the string gauge/scale length combination.

    As things stand, the three guitars I have are all the same in this respect, one (somewhat unusually) with a tune-o-matic and the other a decked two point fender. In my experience, any variance in tension from the locking nut is barely discernible, much like tailpiece height, string through, top loader bridges with the same scale length.





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  • ICBM said:
    drwiddly said:

    Doesn't hold water with me I'm afraid. I only have one Gibson scale guitar atm but several 25" and 25.5" scale guitars. Some have FR's and some don't but I definitely feel the FR guitars have slightly more string tension (all using the same gauge and tuning). I don't have an explanation for it but it seems real.
    It's because the strings are locked exactly at both ends of the vibrating string, so there is no extended length to take up some of the force when you bend - all other systems have at least some.

    The *static* tension of the string is exactly the same for any given gauge, scale length and tuning, but it's the stiffness when bending - and to a smaller extent when fretting, which also bends the string - which alters the perception of tension. A trem does move forward when you bend so will feel looser than a hardtail, but a guitar with a Floyd feels stiffer than a non-locking trem because of the nut clamp.
    I’m really confused by this now. 
    Ive always experienced shorter scale length guitars, les Paul’s, SG, Mustang etc as being softer or looser re string tension, the classic example being 9’s on a fender 10’s on an LP being a similar feel, yet you are saying that the shorter string length means that the tension is higher? 

    Maybe im getting totally the wrong end of the stick here but if I, for example played the open top string on my guitar ( E) 
    at concert 440, then capo the string at the 5th fret and retuned it to E again, the tension is a lot lower. 

    But you you seem to be saying that the double locking nature of a floyd style system reduces the active length of the string and therefore increases the tension. 


    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 911
    You're absolutely right about a shorter scale length reducing string tension, as shown by the different feel of a Gibson and a Fender using the same gauge strings. As I understand it, the tighter tension of the FR is a result of the locking nut as opposed to a normal nut which allows the strings to move.
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  • MayneheadMaynehead Frets: 1782
    There's an easy way to test the "shorter string length" theory, just loosen the locking nut clamps and see if it feels any easier to bend.

    I still think it's mainly the fact that you have to bend further due to the give of the bridge, and a Floyd seems to "give" more than lets say a Fender style trem, which is why it feels slightly easier on a Fender trem.
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  • drwiddly said:
    You're absolutely right about a shorter scale length reducing string tension, as shown by the different feel of a Gibson and a Fender using the same gauge strings. As I understand it, the tighter tension of the FR is a result of the locking nut as opposed to a normal nut which allows the strings to move.
    Yes but you see I don’t understand that. 
    If the string is locked thats the length of the string ie shorter. 

    I cant see how’s its any different locking in a clamp to going in a locking machine head for example. 



    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • MayneheadMaynehead Frets: 1782
    drwiddly said:
    You're absolutely right about a shorter scale length reducing string tension, as shown by the different feel of a Gibson and a Fender using the same gauge strings. As I understand it, the tighter tension of the FR is a result of the locking nut as opposed to a normal nut which allows the strings to move.
    Yes but you see I don’t understand that. 
    If the string is locked thats the length of the string ie shorter. 

    I cant see how’s its any different locking in a clamp to going in a locking machine head for example. 



    Theoretically, it's because when you bend a string, the string stretches along its whole length. By locking down the string at the nut you are preventing any stretching happening in the length of string from the tuner to the locking nut, so less string to stretch = harder to stretch the string = more force it takes to bend the string the same distance.

    But like I say, the fact that the bridge end has some give puts a spanner in this theory.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited January 2019
    professorben said:

    I’m really confused by this now. 
    Ive always experienced shorter scale length guitars, les Paul’s, SG, Mustang etc as being softer or looser re string tension, the classic example being 9’s on a fender 10’s on an LP being a similar feel, yet you are saying that the shorter string length means that the tension is higher? 

    Maybe im getting totally the wrong end of the stick here but if I, for example played the open top string on my guitar ( E) 
    at concert 440, then capo the string at the 5th fret and retuned it to E again, the tension is a lot lower. 

    But you you seem to be saying that the double locking nature of a floyd style system reduces the active length of the string and therefore increases the tension. 
    You're misunderstanding the difference between tension and the stiffness when you bend strings (which includes fretting them, since they are being bent downwards slightly).

    *For a given scale length, string gauge and tuning, the static tension is always exactly the same*. (Ignoring possible differences in wound strings due to the core/wrap ratio.) So a shorter-scale guitar has lower string tension than a longer-scale one.

    So the *static* tension on for example an Ibanez RG, a Telecaster and a Jazzmaster - all 25.5" scale - with the same gauge of strings and tuned the same is identical.

    But when you bend a string on the Jazzmaster, you're not just stretching the string in the scale length - the string moves over the nut and bridge saddle so you have to stretch the additional length at each end too, and so you have to push the string much further across the neck to get the same pitch rise, and because the extra force for each amount of sideways movement is therefore less, it feels easier to do so - ie the string is less *stiff*.

    Now take the Telecaster - the string can still move at the nut, but doesn't really at the bridge due to the sharp break angle over the saddles - so the Tele feels stiffer, and you don't have to move the string anywhere near as far to get the same pitch rise. So a Tele with the same gauge of strings as a Jazzmaster feels 'tighter', as if it has heavier strings, even though the static tension is identical.

    Finally the RG - the string is locked at both ends so you only need to stretch the scale length itself, and the tension rise and hence pitch rise is very fast, so the guitar feels even stiffer than the Tele. If the trem is blocked so it can't move forward and take up some of the extra force, even more so.

    Does that make sense?

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 5105
    edited January 2019
    ICBM said:
    professorben said:

    I’m really confused by this now. 
    Ive always experienced shorter scale length guitars, les Paul’s, SG, Mustang etc as being softer or looser re string tension, the classic example being 9’s on a fender 10’s on an LP being a similar feel, yet you are saying that the shorter string length means that the tension is higher? 

    Maybe im getting totally the wrong end of the stick here but if I, for example played the open top string on my guitar ( E) 
    at concert 440, then capo the string at the 5th fret and retuned it to E again, the tension is a lot lower. 

    But you you seem to be saying that the double locking nature of a floyd style system reduces the active length of the string and therefore increases the tension. 
    You're misunderstanding the difference between tension and the stiffness when you bend strings (which includes fretting them, since they are being bent downwards slightly).

    *For a given scale length, string gauge and tuning, the static tension is always exactly the same*. (Ignoring possible differences in wound strings due to the core/wrap ratio.) So a shorter-scale guitar has lower string tension than a longer-scale one.

    So the *static* tension on for example an Ibanez RG, a Telecaster and a Jazzmaster - all 25.5" scale - with the same gauge of strings and tuned the same is identical.

    But when you bend a string on the Jazzmaster, you're not just stretching the string in the scale length - the string moves over the nut and bridge saddle so you have to stretch the additional length at each end too, and so you have to push the string much further across the neck to get the same pitch rise, and because the extra force for each amount of sideways movement is therefore less, it feels easier to do so - ie the string is less *stiff*.

    Now take the Telecaster - the string can still move at the nut, but doesn't really at the bridge due to the sharp break angle over the saddles - so the Tele feels stiffer, and you don't have to move the string anywhere near as far to get the same pitch rise. So a Tele with the same gauge of strings as a Jazzmaster feels 'tighter', as if it has heavier strings, even though the static tension is identical.

    Finally the RG - the string is locked at both ends so you only need to stretch the scale length itself, and the tension rise and hence pitch rise is very fast, so the guitar feels even stiffer than the Tele. If the trem is blocked so it can't move forward and take up some of the extra force, even more so.

    Does that make sense?
    Starting to. 
    I think I’m just coming at this from the wrong angle. 

    The first thing i thought reading reading your post was “so he’s saying the higher amount of steel in a longer string requires less effort to bend up to pitch?!”

    which feels counter intuitive. 

    I mean i an I can totally understand what you are saying, shorter string, less ‘give’ but every trem guitar I’ve ever played has felt so much looser than the same scale length fixed version. 

    So yeah. 

    Dunno. 
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    I think I’m just coming at this from the wrong angle. 

    The first thing i thought reading reading your post was “so he’s saying the higher amount of steel in a longer string requires less effort to bend up to pitch?!”

    which feels counter intuitive. 
    It's because it takes less force to move it the same amount sideways in terms of distance - but to get the same pitch rise you have to move it further across the neck. You are stretching a greater mass of steel, so I think the overall amount of energy you have to put in will be greater.

    This is not the only example of where human senses can lead you to the wrong conclusions :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • SchnozzSchnozz Frets: 1926
    9s or 10s - Easier to clamp at the saddle than 8s and it's better to have a bit of tension on a floyd rose IMO, so it doesn't move around so much.
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  • duotoneduotone Frets: 972
    Fitted a set of Ernie Ball 8's in the end, and seems to be working fine.  Thanks for your help all & an interesting debate about the why/why nots!
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