Switching DAWs

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  • Stuckfast said:
    I don't think Avid ever owned Tracktion, did they? It was part of the Mackie empire for a while, though.

    I've never heard of David Farmer, but it's true that Reaper poses increasing competition to PT in one particular 'pro' market sector, namely immersive audio for gaming and VR. That's because it has a very flexible bussing structure that can accommodate the enormous numbers of channels you need for higher-order Ambisonics.

    I don't really buy the line that "Reaper is cheap because they don't do any of this evil stuff like advertising and copy protection." It's cheap because it was developed as a pet project by someone who made hundreds of millions selling WinAmp at the height of the dotcom boom. It's also cheap because they rely on the Reaper community as a support resource rather than offering official tech support (which is infinitely more costly than a few pages of advertising here or there).

    It certainly is cheap though! And I totally agree about the sample libraries. Logic is the worst for that.
    Id check your information on the pricing structure of Reaper. Im pretty confident in the reasoning ive posted and where I sourced those facts. Ive been a Reaper user since under a year after it was launched.

    Im not sure why "pro" gets quotation marks when in reference to reaper but its non-acronym un-quoted version when used in reference to ProTools
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  • octatonic said:
    octatonic said:
    and don't bloat the package with a bunch of useless sample libraries etc
    Personal bugbear of mine.
    I don't install the full sample libraries- what the hell do I need 400GB of someone else's idea of a good drumbeat for?

    Logic doesn't have crazy encryption either- I have it on all my Macs with one license and it is therefore the one I tend to gravitate towards.

    One other irritant regarding Pro Tools- the number of authorisations for the application is 1 but the number of authorisations for their plugins is 3.

    So you can have 3 iLoks with the Avid plugins authorised on it but you cannot run PT without moving your iLok yet between machines, or using iLok Cloud, which is not brilliantly implemented.
    That sucks.
    I made the move to Logic and Apple in 2012 after having enough of running Windows Vista. I basically run Logic with Native Instruments plugins 90 percent of the time and everything just works. Every now and again I venture out into the real world and realise why I shouldn't. I recently downloaded PT First (havent had PT since I moved to Mac) just for shits and giggles and good god. Even the download was running at 100kbps max... yes! KILOBYTES! and that was after several failures and three days of trying to get a decent connection. It was literally just Avids site. I also have Reaper and Ableton Live both of which run like charms on Mojave.

    Im also using the single £140 payment for Logic X from when it came out in 2013 and I have it installed on three machines. I realise it is a loss leader...(or maybe not)... for Apple but considering you pay $400 a MONTH just for support and everyone just goes along with it because they have to makes my brain melt.

    The R&D was done on these programs long ago. The advancements are incremental at best. Tech has moved forward so much in the past 15 years it's incredible. 

    Engineers of the world unite! Its time to storm the evil Avid compound and install Reaper on all their servers!
    Not $400 a month. It is a year.
    oh!!! hahaha my fault, $400 a month could buy you a nice BMW lol
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  • The reality is that most of the DAWs around now have converged on a set of accepted workflows and feature sets that really, once you're comfortable with one of them... it'll take you a day max to get comfortable with another of them.

    Pro Tools is no longer the king. The professional domain is no longer the barometer. Last bit of industry info I got on this topic was that more people were using Propellerheads Reason than Pro Tools in North America. I don't have a source, but it was going around a few years ago.

    Cubase, Logic, Reaper, Studio One, and Cakewalk all do the multi-track group editing thing that Pro Tools does, and they all have similar mixing workflows and features too.

    The same thing has happened in video now, where you've got the likes of Adobe Premiere really equalising the playing field when it comes to accessibility - since Final Cut Pro X came out, Adobe saw a MASSIVE jump in people using their software. And now you've also got the likes of Da Vinci Resolve, which is completely free for the average person right now. Nobody needs Media Composer anymore.

    So ultimately, buy for your wallet. When it comes to newbies to recording, I always recommend Propellerheads Reason. Because it's one of the easiest to get your head around, as it relates to the physical world. If you can get your head around how a wire works, then you can understand that.

    Loop based music creation = Ableton Live or Bitwig Studio; FLStudio if you really must!
    Linear recording = Studio One, Reaper, Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools.

    Those are basically the main options.
    didnt Reason actually release a new version that was a little more like Logic a few years ago? I havent checked it out but had a few D&B mates back in yonder that where Reason diehards so always had it kicking about and it always confused the utter fuck out of me.

    Hey, you aint hardcore until you were programming 16th note hi hat patterns in Cubase on an Atari ST!
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  • Stuckfast said:
    When it comes to newbies to recording, I always recommend Propellerheads Reason. Because it's one of the easiest to get your head around, as it relates to the physical world. If you can get your head around how a wire works, then you can understand that.

    That's an interesting point. I think you could make a good case for the opposite point of view though. If you're recommending something for newcomers to recording, why choose a program that's based around mimicking an old hardware paradigm that those people won't have ever used? Why not instead recommend something that cuts ties with the hardware world and just adopts the principles of good software design, like Ableton or Bitwig?

    Because Live and Bitwig aren't intuitive to non-techy musicians imho. They both expect a certain amount of software and tech experience in order to understand the interactions. Of course that is true with Reason too, but it's much more visual. Visual things are easier to get your head around.
    *** taking a break to work on myself ***
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  • The reality is that most of the DAWs around now have converged on a set of accepted workflows and feature sets that really, once you're comfortable with one of them... it'll take you a day max to get comfortable with another of them.

    Pro Tools is no longer the king. The professional domain is no longer the barometer. Last bit of industry info I got on this topic was that more people were using Propellerheads Reason than Pro Tools in North America. I don't have a source, but it was going around a few years ago.

    Cubase, Logic, Reaper, Studio One, and Cakewalk all do the multi-track group editing thing that Pro Tools does, and they all have similar mixing workflows and features too.

    The same thing has happened in video now, where you've got the likes of Adobe Premiere really equalising the playing field when it comes to accessibility - since Final Cut Pro X came out, Adobe saw a MASSIVE jump in people using their software. And now you've also got the likes of Da Vinci Resolve, which is completely free for the average person right now. Nobody needs Media Composer anymore.

    So ultimately, buy for your wallet. When it comes to newbies to recording, I always recommend Propellerheads Reason. Because it's one of the easiest to get your head around, as it relates to the physical world. If you can get your head around how a wire works, then you can understand that.

    Loop based music creation = Ableton Live or Bitwig Studio; FLStudio if you really must!
    Linear recording = Studio One, Reaper, Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools.

    Those are basically the main options.
    didnt Reason actually release a new version that was a little more like Logic a few years ago? I havent checked it out but had a few D&B mates back in yonder that where Reason diehards so always had it kicking about and it always confused the utter fuck out of me.

    Hey, you aint hardcore until you were programming 16th note hi hat patterns in Cubase on an Atari ST!
    Yeah they had an app called Record, which was different to reason. But they they brought everything over into Reason and discontinued Record.

    I think Record was a test - 'is this something our users want' type of thing...
    *** taking a break to work on myself ***
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  • The reality is that most of the DAWs around now have converged on a set of accepted workflows and feature sets that really, once you're comfortable with one of them... it'll take you a day max to get comfortable with another of them.

    Pro Tools is no longer the king. The professional domain is no longer the barometer. Last bit of industry info I got on this topic was that more people were using Propellerheads Reason than Pro Tools in North America. I don't have a source, but it was going around a few years ago.

    Cubase, Logic, Reaper, Studio One, and Cakewalk all do the multi-track group editing thing that Pro Tools does, and they all have similar mixing workflows and features too.

    The same thing has happened in video now, where you've got the likes of Adobe Premiere really equalising the playing field when it comes to accessibility - since Final Cut Pro X came out, Adobe saw a MASSIVE jump in people using their software. And now you've also got the likes of Da Vinci Resolve, which is completely free for the average person right now. Nobody needs Media Composer anymore.

    So ultimately, buy for your wallet. When it comes to newbies to recording, I always recommend Propellerheads Reason. Because it's one of the easiest to get your head around, as it relates to the physical world. If you can get your head around how a wire works, then you can understand that.

    Loop based music creation = Ableton Live or Bitwig Studio; FLStudio if you really must!
    Linear recording = Studio One, Reaper, Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools.

    Those are basically the main options.
    didnt Reason actually release a new version that was a little more like Logic a few years ago? I havent checked it out but had a few D&B mates back in yonder that where Reason diehards so always had it kicking about and it always confused the utter fuck out of me.

    Hey, you aint hardcore until you were programming 16th note hi hat patterns in Cubase on an Atari ST!
    Yeah they had an app called Record, which was different to reason. But they they brought everything over into Reason and discontinued Record.

    I think Record was a test - 'is this something our users want' type of thing...
    Like I said... you guys confuse the fuck out of me lol
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 491
    gibsongretschfan said:Id check your information on the pricing structure of Reaper. Im pretty confident in the reasoning ive posted and where I sourced those facts. Ive been a Reaper user since under a year after it was launched.

    Im not sure why "pro" gets quotation marks when in reference to reaper but its non-acronym un-quoted version when used in reference to ProTools
    Where did you source those facts, out of interest?

    Reaper's pricing structure isn't in question. What I'm curious about is whether that pricing structure makes it profitable, or needs to. I guess none of us have ever seen any of the company's accounts. I genuinely have no idea.

    The cost of advertising in specialist media is pretty negligible compared to the cost of, say, employing a tech support person. You can get a full page in Music Tech or Future Music for a few hundred quid, and you could do worthwhile campaigns on Facebook or Google Adwords for whatever sum you want to spend. That really doesn't make the difference between being able to charge $60 for your product and having to charge $600.

    Same with Logic really -- do you think that Apple are able to offer it cheaply just because they've saved a few pennies on advertising? They could buy up every page in every magazine for the next ten years out of petty cash!
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  • Stuckfast said:
    gibsongretschfan said:Id check your information on the pricing structure of Reaper. Im pretty confident in the reasoning ive posted and where I sourced those facts. Ive been a Reaper user since under a year after it was launched.

    Im not sure why "pro" gets quotation marks when in reference to reaper but its non-acronym un-quoted version when used in reference to ProTools
    Where did you source those facts, out of interest?

    Reaper's pricing structure isn't in question. What I'm curious about is whether that pricing structure makes it profitable, or needs to. I guess none of us have ever seen any of the company's accounts. I genuinely have no idea.

    The cost of advertising in specialist media is pretty negligible compared to the cost of, say, employing a tech support person. You can get a full page in Music Tech or Future Music for a few hundred quid, and you could do worthwhile campaigns on Facebook or Google Adwords for whatever sum you want to spend. That really doesn't make the difference between being able to charge $60 for your product and having to charge $600.

    Same with Logic really -- do you think that Apple are able to offer it cheaply just because they've saved a few pennies on advertising? They could buy up every page in every magazine for the next ten years out of petty cash!
    Being ampart of that community from nearly the start it was always stated by Cuckos that the reasons they could afford to deliver at the prices they were was that they had a very small team of developers and pretty much no one else in the company. Cuckos also did not advertise and they did not spend any money trying to encrypt their software. The small developer pool offered a less bloated more efficient code, thus the surprisingly small file size of Reaper. Id imagine this is why it still runs so well today.

    As to the advertising, yes it may not be a massive amount of money to boost a Facebook ad or get a page in a music tech magazine but you need to employ people to do this, to run advertising campaigns, graphic designers etc. 

    Im not even sure who Cuckos employ at this point but back then it was a seriously tight operation that had an ethos that they stuck to 

    If they rely on a user database for support then why not? They have made a DAW (I'm not even using the word product) that people are so passionate about that they want to help each other. Including users such as Farmer that probably have other things to do with their time than make Youtube videos to help out Cuckos.

    ProTools is where it is still today because it takes the money it syphons from its users every year and spends it on ads and bungs to magazines and publications, making sure that ProTools is the first DAW with Atmos support, or that ProTools is the only DAW with colleges offering courses to be certified ProTools engineers etc

    And yes it may be the only game in town for post. It still is the best DAW for post. But a lot of this is down to a chicken and egg argument and id really hoped by 2019 we wouldn't still have these platform restrictions

    And that Apple had made another modular tower system,

    And that they had made a cure for baldness in pill form...


    But hey, there's always 2030


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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 491
    gibsongretschfan said:
    ProTools is where it is still today because it takes the money it syphons from its users every year and spends it on ads and bungs to magazines and publications,


     That is utter, utter horse shit. And quite possibly libellous. Unless of course you have evidence of Avid handing out these bungs, in which case I want to know why they've never offered one to me or to anyone I know. They are a listed company worth hundreds of millions, not some bunch of cowboys putting used tenners in people's back pockets.

    And when did you last see an Avid advert in a magazine? AFAIK it's been several years since they took out any print advertising.

    Reaper is great and I'm glad it exists, but I don't know why its users feel compelled to endlessly trot out this nonsense about Avid.
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  • Stuckfast said:
    gibsongretschfan said:
    ProTools is where it is still today because it takes the money it syphons from its users every year and spends it on ads and bungs to magazines and publications,


     That is utter, utter horse shit. And quite possibly libellous. Unless of course you have evidence of Avid handing out these bungs, in which case I want to know why they've never offered one to me or to anyone I know. They are a listed company worth hundreds of millions, not some bunch of cowboys putting used tenners in people's back pockets.

    And when did you last see an Avid advert in a magazine? AFAIK it's been several years since they took out any print advertising.

    Reaper is great and I'm glad it exists, but I don't know why its users feel compelled to endlessly trot out this nonsense about Avid.
    lol ok...

    please list a single music tech media source who does reviews that has reviewed, publicised or promoted an Avid product whom has not either had that product for free, been compensated in kind or compensated monetarily

    That you are making this post about possible libel lawsuits is a bit of a facepalm moment especially considering you ignored the rest of my rebuttal to your earlier post.

    Bye
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  • Cockos currently has two programmers.[6] Justin Frankel, the company founder, probably best known for his work on the Winamp media player application, and John Schwartz, who joined Cockos in 2008 and is the author of many audio plug-ins, notably a virtual analogue synthesizer called Olga. Christophe Thibault, an old colleague of Frankel's from his Nullsoft days, was a Cockos employee between 2005-2014. Thibault is a French programmer and was the founder of the Kaillera and K-Meleon projects. In April 2014 he moved to Blizzard Entertainment.

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  • Avid is currently a Nasdaq listed company with 1500 employees

    I would love to know how many of those employees actually code and how many devise advertising strategies, account income or suck Stuckfasts German sausage for him
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  • *** taking a break to work on myself ***
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 491

    please list a single music tech media source who does reviews that has reviewed, publicised or promoted an Avid product whom has not either had that product for free, been compensated in kind or compensated monetarily

    The paranoia runs deep! Why do people have this warped view of the industry as some sort of hotbed of corruption and malpractice?

    Since I have a fair bit of experience in it, let me tell you how it works.

    First, it depends whether you're talking about hardware or software.

    On the hardware front, neither Avid nor most other companies are in the habit of giving away expensive kit that I know of. Most will give the opportunity to buy at a discount. One or two are fairly lax about asking for their review samples to be returned, or they make stuff that's so cheap it's not really economic to bother. Neither of those things is true of Avid. The only hardware Avid make these days is HDX rigs and expensive live-sound consoles -- and anyone who has one, paid for it.

      With software, 95 percent of the time manufacturers will give reviewers a full NFR copy of the program. This makes sense: after all it doesn't really cost them anything to do so, and writing a software review can be a lengthy process. There are however a few manufacturers who will give reviewers only time-limited access to their products. Waves is one. Avid are another. 

    There are some manufacturers who evidently are keen to have people they perceive as influential using their products, and will give things away for that reason. Avid are not among them, and I have honestly NEVER been offered anything with strings attached, by anyone.


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  • Cons

    customers spend a lot on support and they are not expecting someone from Manila with 6 weeks training to give them technical support

    management think that changing their suport model is going to be fine but its not because they are going to give less to the clients who have had more for the same money, no more 24/7 support, only tier 1 elite customers can expect a reasonable service and everyone else can have someone from Manila

    clients who have purchased multi-year contracts are going to find themselves in trouble with the service (or lack of it) and they cant vote with their feet and leave due to their contracts but in a few years time, there will be no customers for Avid to support as Avid would have desimated the support the customers are paying for and expecting

    the customers pay for and expect more and they are going to be getting less and the arogant executive leadership team will be long gone when their poor decision come to light

    customers should seriously be looking for alternatives now










    lol

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  • Stuckfast said:

    please list a single music tech media source who does reviews that has reviewed, publicised or promoted an Avid product whom has not either had that product for free, been compensated in kind or compensated monetarily

    The paranoia runs deep! Why do people have this warped view of the industry as some sort of hotbed of corruption and malpractice?

    Since I have a fair bit of experience in it, let me tell you how it works.

    First, it depends whether you're talking about hardware or software.

    On the hardware front, neither Avid nor most other companies are in the habit of giving away expensive kit that I know of. Most will give the opportunity to buy at a discount. One or two are fairly lax about asking for their review samples to be returned, or they make stuff that's so cheap it's not really economic to bother. Neither of those things is true of Avid. The only hardware Avid make these days is HDX rigs and expensive live-sound consoles -- and anyone who has one, paid for it.

      With software, 95 percent of the time manufacturers will give reviewers a full NFR copy of the program. This makes sense: after all it doesn't really cost them anything to do so, and writing a software review can be a lengthy process. There are however a few manufacturers who will give reviewers only time-limited access to their products. Waves is one. Avid are another. 

    There are some manufacturers who evidently are keen to have people they perceive as influential using their products, and will give things away for that reason. Avid are not among them, and I have honestly NEVER been offered anything with strings attached, by anyone.


    who are you
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 491
    Someone who knows enough to know that you don't know enough.

    BTW I'm not defending Avid's corporate strategy and what not. They have made questionable decisions, they've upset their user base, they've moved things offshore that perhaps they shouldn't have. Their last CEO left under a very grey cloud. But they're just a business, they're not intrinsically evil any more than your average guitar company is.
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 491
    Also: the reasons why Avid have been gouging their Pro Tools users have nothing to do with keeping in with the media, it's because the video side of the business is in deep doodoo and they need to keep the cash rolling in.
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  • gibsongretschfangibsongretschfan Frets: 632
    edited January 13
    deleted
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 491
    PM on its way
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  • spark240 said:
    I would also demo Studio One ...some have made the move from PT to S1 and don't look back
    I've used pro tools and reaper a lot.  I've used most of the others fleetingly (not logic as I'm pc based)

    Moved to studio one recently and couldn't be happier.
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