Modellers vs Amps

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  • NelsonPNelsonP Frets: 3347
    sweepy said:
    Well, I bought that sweet Hayden 5w Petite and just spent a few hours with Chris @RiftAmps speccing a build,,,,,,watch this space and the look of disdain from my bank manager 
    Well, that does sound sweet!

    And I'm sure it will.
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  • One trick I do for balancing out things, with the Boss GT-1000, is to send an amp only signal to power amp and a 2x12 (V30s).  I also have the sub outputs with IR 2x12 cabs (V30s) for the desk, if it's needed.  I can achieve the same stuff with AF2.

    @Cirrus, does the Helix offer the same capabilities?
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    One trick I do for balancing out things, with the Boss GT-1000, is to send an amp only signal to power amp and a 2x12 (V30s).  I also have the sub outputs with IR 2x12 cabs (V30s) for the desk, if it's needed.  I can achieve the same stuff with AF2.

    @Cirrus, does the Helix offer the same capabilities?
    Yes, with Helix there are a few ways to do it, you either drop a send block before your IR's and route it to one of the sends (that's what I do) or create a parallel path with one going to the XLR out with IR's and one to the 1/4 outs without, or you could do left XLR with IR and Right XLR without
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  • WazmeisterWazmeister Frets: 9446
    NelsonP said:
    sweepy said:
    Basically, you can’t be happy unless you have both which is pretty much the conclusion I came to
    Sweety, what amp you got?
    Carr Mercury V.... stunning.

    Full review to follow
    Sweety?
    Apologies, my bad...

    I thought Jonathan was calling me 'sweet', which actually is his pet name for me... ;)
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  • That's where the line6 powecab comes in. 
    Best of both worlds you set up the amp without speaker simulation in the helix.
    You then set the speaker you want to hear in the room and the line out to the desk gets microphone emulation.
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    After last nights gig using the helix in to a valve power amp with cab I’ve decided the feel thing is overrated. Going back to direct
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  • John_A said:
    After last nights gig using the helix in to a valve power amp with cab I’ve decided the feel thing is overrated. Going back to direct
    Why? Hassle with mic-ing up?
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    John’s off line, so I’ll give my tuppence, and he can add more later. I watched @John_A set up, and we talked about it during the break. The Engl was just one more piece of equipment to set up. It sounded nice, but he had to balance the Engl with the monitor, and what he ended up hearing wasn’t what the audience was hearing. We both agreed that we’d prefer to put the effort into the modelled sound, and not having an amp to worry about as well. A 4x12 or Marshall stack might have had more mojo, but the band’s sound would have been horrible, and the audience deafened.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    edited January 2019
    Roland said:
    John’s off line, so I’ll give my tuppence, and he can add more later. I watched @John_A set up, and we talked about it during the break. The Engl was just one more piece of equipment to set up. It sounded nice, but he had to balance the Engl with the monitor, and what he ended up hearing wasn’t what the audience was hearing. We both agreed that we’d prefer to put the effort into the modelled sound, and not having an amp to worry about as well. A 4x12 or Marshall stack might have had more mojo, but the band’s sound would have been horrible, and the audience deafened.
    Thanks for that

    To add, even with the little 20W Engl running at no where near full tilt with the amp in a traditional, behind me position, to hear myself properly my stagesound was much higher volume than ideal, interfering with what everyone else could hear, and more importantly meant only about 10% of my guitar was coming out of the PA which is the thing that carries the sound to the back of the room.  I was probably too loud for people at the front while those at the back probably couldn’t hear me.
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    edited January 2019
    John_A said:
    After last nights gig using the helix in to a valve power amp with cab I’ve decided the feel thing is overrated. Going back to direct
    Why? Hassle with mic-ing up?
    Didn’t mic, ran a line out of the helix pre IR to the amp, and Sent the XLR outs with IR straight to the PA, I think it’s worth sacrificing 5% of your on stage sound in return for 30% improvement  for the audience 
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  • Makes sense...we haven't gigged through a decent PA in a while and have mostly had to rely on backline so it's a different dynamic. I would be worried about having to rely on the direct sound through some of the kit we have to use. How was the tone out of the Engl? Bet it sounded pretty good! 
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    Makes sense...we haven't gigged through a decent PA in a while and have mostly had to rely on backline so it's a different dynamic. I would be worried about having to rely on the direct sound through some of the kit we have to use. How was the tone out of the Engl? Bet it sounded pretty good! 
    There’s a very short clip filmed by @roland at the bottom of page 2 here

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/143703/any-thoughts-on-using-a-compact-line-array-in-a-pub-band#latest

    Yes, I think it sounded great, but no better really than it does direct, and using the amp meant it sounded good depending where you were stood, going direct it sounds the same all over the room
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    ... How was the tone out of the Engl? Bet it sounded pretty good! 
    The Engl was good, but not spectacularly different from the PA. It had an edge to the sound which I presume came from the cabinet vs @John_A’s choice of IR. I could tell the difference when I moved from one side of the room, where the cabinet was hidden behind the one armed bandit, to the other which had line of sight. But ... and it’s a big but ... I could only hear it when I was wedged into a small space beside the bar. The rest of the room was hearing what came from the PA.

    I think this is the key point in the modeller vs amp discussion. There are differences in the sound and feel, better or worse is a matter of personal choice, but through a reasonable PA the modeller wins on other factors.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • That's very true - cabs can be a bit like  torch beam...not much spread of sound. I've been quite surprised when I have moved across the front of my cab just how completely different it sounds depending on where you stand.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11413

    Even with an old Pod XT, I've had someone whose ears I trust tell me that the front of house sound was better than when mic'ing an amp.  The problem with that was the monitoring we had at the time.  I've bought myself a QSC now.

    I'm just waiting for the new Kemper Reverbs.  I'm still using an amp live at the moment because I still want to use the Big Sky.  If the new Kemper Reverbs are all they are cracked up to be, then I'll start using the Kemper live on a regular basis.

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  • For the last few months I've been using my GSP1101 into a SS power amp into a real cab but this weekend I dragged my Orange TH30 out of the garage and set it up in 4CM with the GSP1101. Comparing the modelled and real valve pre-amps was interesting. There is a difference and the valve amp is better - it has more 'life' to it. My wife said she thought the valve amp sounded more like "a guitar being made louder" whereas the digital pre-amps sounded more "synthetic". She didn't know which was which when she was listening to them.

    It's not anything a punter would notice in a gig. And it's not as if the digital setup sounds bad. But there is a difference and playing by myself, just for my own enjoyment, the valve amp is more satisfying.

    I'd love to try a Kemper...but I can't justify that kind of cost. I'll keep using the GSP1101 for the moment...I might try it in 4CM with a XLR feed to FoH. Although, as JohnA noted above, that kind of setup can be a bit problematic.
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  • jeztone2jeztone2 Frets: 2160
    Interesting stuff. Ive just bought a Helix to use as a pedalboard. I'm liking it so far, but not decided on a methodology yet. The other guitar player in my band uses a Headrush with the dedicated FRFR. It's not to my taste, but useable. 
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  • I think the Headrush FRFR is actually a re-badged Alto (312?). Not that that's a bad thing necessarily but I guess it won't be as good as something like a DXR.

    I'm keen to try the Headrush, although it doesn't get a lot of love.
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  • I think the Headrush FRFR is actually a re-badged Alto (312?). Not that that's a bad thing necessarily but I guess it won't be as good as something like a DXR.

    I'm keen to try the Headrush, although it doesn't get a lot of love.
    I believe the Headrush FRFR is the same enclosure as the Alto but the whole unit has been re-voiced for use with modellers.
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  • I think the Headrush FRFR is actually a re-badged Alto (312?). Not that that's a bad thing necessarily but I guess it won't be as good as something like a DXR.

    I'm keen to try the Headrush, although it doesn't get a lot of love.
    I believe the Headrush FRFR is the same enclosure as the Alto but the whole unit has been re-voiced for use with modellers.
    I thought that as well but I think that was based on the spec of the Alto 212 being different from the Headrush version - people (including me) assumed this meant the Headrush version was in some way tuned to guitar use. However, I think the Headrush version is identical in terms of spec to the new Alto '3' series...so, the 312.
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