A question for all you Helix & HX Stomp users!

delorean

I'm toying with the idea of going down the Helix route - specifically HX Stomp due to it's size and portability.

For those of you that use these things live, what's the best way to get a great live sound from them? 

We have a fairly average PA system, it's not bad but not top of the line (a couple of powered 15" speakers and an 18" sub).  It gets us a reasonably good live sound.

I would ideally like to use my existing amp and cab (Suhr Badger and Zilla Fatboy 2x12), and then feed that to the desk, but if FRFR is the way forward then I guess I'll look into that instead as I can pick up JBL speakers from work at a very good price.

For what it's worth, I'm not unhappy with my existing amp & cab setup, I just want to try and streamline a bit (my board is getting a bit unwieldy), and I like the prospect of having so many different amp sounds at my fingertips/toetips.

FarleyUK

Pretty sure HX Stomp is ONLY effects.... so no amp emulation. You'd need a Helix LT at a minimum for the amp emulation.

smudge_lad

FarleyUK said:

Pretty sure HX Stomp is ONLY effects.... so no amp emulation. You'd need a Helix LT at a minimum for the amp emulation.

Nope....It's the full shebang

delorean

Nah the Stomp has the amps as well - the HX Effects is the one without amps  

FarleyUK

Oh! I stand corrected in that case

smudge_lad

delorean said:

I'm toying with the idea of going down the Helix route - specifically HX Stomp due to it's size and portability.

For those of you that use these things live, what's the best way to get a great live sound from them? 

We have a fairly average PA system, it's not bad but not top of the line (a couple of powered 15" speakers and an 18" sub).  It gets us a reasonably good live sound.

I would ideally like to use my existing amp and cab (Suhr Badger and Zilla Fatboy 2x12), and then feed that to the desk, but if FRFR is the way forward then I guess I'll look into that instead as I can pick up JBL speakers from work at a very good price.

For what it's worth, I'm not unhappy with my existing amp & cab setup, I just want to try and streamline a bit (my board is getting a bit unwieldy), and I like the prospect of having so many different amp sounds at my fingertips/toetips.

My finding so far, is for the the amp emulation, you will benefit massively from FRFR (which I don't have yet). I have a Marshall JVM410h and Badcat Cub40r, and I can easily get the Stomp sounding pretty great through the clean channel on the Marshall, but it's harder to EQ it into the Badcat, simply because of the EQ of the amp itself.

I haven't experimented greatly with the Stomp running into the FX Loop and bypassing the pre-amp, but initial (and very quick) checks gave me quite a muffled tone, which I'm guessing again would need significant EQ'ing.

delorean

smudge_lad said:

delorean said:

I'm toying with the idea of going down the Helix route - specifically HX Stomp due to it's size and portability.

For those of you that use these things live, what's the best way to get a great live sound from them? 

We have a fairly average PA system, it's not bad but not top of the line (a couple of powered 15" speakers and an 18" sub).  It gets us a reasonably good live sound.

I would ideally like to use my existing amp and cab (Suhr Badger and Zilla Fatboy 2x12), and then feed that to the desk, but if FRFR is the way forward then I guess I'll look into that instead as I can pick up JBL speakers from work at a very good price.

For what it's worth, I'm not unhappy with my existing amp & cab setup, I just want to try and streamline a bit (my board is getting a bit unwieldy), and I like the prospect of having so many different amp sounds at my fingertips/toetips.

My finding so far, is for the the amp emulation, you will benefit massively from FRFR (which I don't have yet). I have a Marshall JVM410h and Badcat Cub40r, and I can easily get the Stomp sounding pretty great through the clean channel on the Marshall, but it's harder to EQ it into the Badcat, simply because of the EQ of the amp itself.

I haven't experimented greatly with the Stomp running into the FX Loop and bypassing the pre-amp, but initial (and very quick) checks gave me quite a muffled tone, which I'm guessing again would need significant EQ'ing.

Do you not need to run it into the loop in order use the delay/reverb/modulation effects?  

Sorry if it's a silly question - this is my first potential foray into the world of multi-effects!

smudge_lad

delorean said:

smudge_lad said:

delorean said:

I'm toying with the idea of going down the Helix route - specifically HX Stomp due to it's size and portability.

For those of you that use these things live, what's the best way to get a great live sound from them? 

We have a fairly average PA system, it's not bad but not top of the line (a couple of powered 15" speakers and an 18" sub).  It gets us a reasonably good live sound.

I would ideally like to use my existing amp and cab (Suhr Badger and Zilla Fatboy 2x12), and then feed that to the desk, but if FRFR is the way forward then I guess I'll look into that instead as I can pick up JBL speakers from work at a very good price.

For what it's worth, I'm not unhappy with my existing amp & cab setup, I just want to try and streamline a bit (my board is getting a bit unwieldy), and I like the prospect of having so many different amp sounds at my fingertips/toetips.

My finding so far, is for the the amp emulation, you will benefit massively from FRFR (which I don't have yet). I have a Marshall JVM410h and Badcat Cub40r, and I can easily get the Stomp sounding pretty great through the clean channel on the Marshall, but it's harder to EQ it into the Badcat, simply because of the EQ of the amp itself.

I haven't experimented greatly with the Stomp running into the FX Loop and bypassing the pre-amp, but initial (and very quick) checks gave me quite a muffled tone, which I'm guessing again would need significant EQ'ing.

Do you not need to run it into the loop in order use the delay/reverb/modulation effects?  

Sorry if it's a silly question - this is my first potential foray into the world of multi-effects!

No, you can run everything into the front no problem.

I've had great results with the Stomp in the loop for effects and using the pre-amp for gain and tone

digitalscream

smudge_lad said:

delorean said:

I'm toying with the idea of going down the Helix route - specifically HX Stomp due to it's size and portability.

For those of you that use these things live, what's the best way to get a great live sound from them? 

We have a fairly average PA system, it's not bad but not top of the line (a couple of powered 15" speakers and an 18" sub).  It gets us a reasonably good live sound.

I would ideally like to use my existing amp and cab (Suhr Badger and Zilla Fatboy 2x12), and then feed that to the desk, but if FRFR is the way forward then I guess I'll look into that instead as I can pick up JBL speakers from work at a very good price.

For what it's worth, I'm not unhappy with my existing amp & cab setup, I just want to try and streamline a bit (my board is getting a bit unwieldy), and I like the prospect of having so many different amp sounds at my fingertips/toetips.

My finding so far, is for the the amp emulation, you will benefit massively from FRFR (which I don't have yet). I have a Marshall JVM410h and Badcat Cub40r, and I can easily get the Stomp sounding pretty great through the clean channel on the Marshall, but it's harder to EQ it into the Badcat, simply because of the EQ of the amp itself.

I haven't experimented greatly with the Stomp running into the FX Loop and bypassing the pre-amp, but initial (and very quick) checks gave me quite a muffled tone, which I'm guessing again would need significant EQ'ing.

I disagree; FRFR is not necessarily the best approach. I've done it every way you can:

1 - FRFR monitoring, DI into the PA
2 - Into the effects return for on-stage monitoring, DI to the PA
3 - Into the effects return with a mic in front of cab into the PA
4 - Helix -> power amp -> cab -> mic -> PA
5 - Helix -> power amp -> cab, DI -> PA

Of those, the best results came from #4. It sounds so much like a real amp that I genuinely can't tell the difference (using the Powerstage 170). Not only that, but...I've found that giving the house sound engineer a DI signal with cab emulation or an impulse doesn't usually get the best results out front; not because it's a bad signal (it's not, our album was recorded exactly like that), but because it's not what he's used to in terms of getting the best out of a guitar cab for his PA.

Admittedly, this is on the toilet circuit with house PAs everywhere we go. You might have more mileage if you run your own PA and you can tweak it for consistency yourself.

smudge_lad

Great, detailed info there - so, I'm guessing the power amp in question is fairly neutral? If so, then that's kinda what I was getting at. The stomp into the clean channel of my Marshall and into a 4x12 sounds great, since the clean channel is very nice. It's a different story into my Badcat, so I was only advising that MMV depending on the amp/cab that's being used

delorean

digitalscream said:

smudge_lad said:

delorean said:

I'm toying with the idea of going down the Helix route - specifically HX Stomp due to it's size and portability.

For those of you that use these things live, what's the best way to get a great live sound from them? 

We have a fairly average PA system, it's not bad but not top of the line (a couple of powered 15" speakers and an 18" sub).  It gets us a reasonably good live sound.

I would ideally like to use my existing amp and cab (Suhr Badger and Zilla Fatboy 2x12), and then feed that to the desk, but if FRFR is the way forward then I guess I'll look into that instead as I can pick up JBL speakers from work at a very good price.

For what it's worth, I'm not unhappy with my existing amp & cab setup, I just want to try and streamline a bit (my board is getting a bit unwieldy), and I like the prospect of having so many different amp sounds at my fingertips/toetips.

My finding so far, is for the the amp emulation, you will benefit massively from FRFR (which I don't have yet). I have a Marshall JVM410h and Badcat Cub40r, and I can easily get the Stomp sounding pretty great through the clean channel on the Marshall, but it's harder to EQ it into the Badcat, simply because of the EQ of the amp itself.

I haven't experimented greatly with the Stomp running into the FX Loop and bypassing the pre-amp, but initial (and very quick) checks gave me quite a muffled tone, which I'm guessing again would need significant EQ'ing.

I disagree; FRFR is not necessarily the best approach. I've done it every way you can:

1 - FRFR monitoring, DI into the PA
2 - Into the effects return for on-stage monitoring, DI to the PA
3 - Into the effects return with a mic in front of cab into the PA
4 - Helix -> power amp -> cab -> mic -> PA
5 - Helix -> power amp -> cab, DI -> PA

Of those, the best results came from #4. It sounds so much like a real amp that I genuinely can't tell the difference (using the Powerstage 170). Not only that, but...I've found that giving the house sound engineer a DI signal with cab emulation or an impulse doesn't usually get the best results out front; not because it's a bad signal (it's not, our album was recorded exactly like that), but because it's not what he's used to in terms of getting the best out of a guitar cab for his PA.

Admittedly, this is on the toilet circuit with house PAs everywhere we go. You might have more mileage if you run your own PA and you can tweak it for consistency yourself.

@digitalscream - how was option 5? 

That's how we'd normally do things as the stages we play on tend to be too tight to add additional mics

digitalscream

delorean said:

@digitalscream - how was option 5? 

That's how we'd normally do things as the stages we play on tend to be too tight to add additional mics

For my use, it suffered from all the same problems as the other DI -> PA options: inexperienced sound guys made a mess of it because they only knew how to deal with their own mic placement.

The other problem with DI -> PA is that if the sound guy leaves the phantom power on, it won't affect dynamic mics but it'll sound nasty coming from the Helix. That means putting a DI box between the Helix and the desk to make sure, and is just extra hassle.

Personally, I'd get a Sennheiser E906 and hang it in front of the cab in your position. Or, if the budget doesn't allow, a Superlux PRA628 mk II (£30 from Thomann).

Ultimately, impulses are fine, but...why bother emulating, when you've got the real thing right there?

Jimbro66

digitalscream said:

FRFR is not necessarily the best approach. I've done it every way you can:

1 - FRFR monitoring, DI into the PA
2 - Into the effects return for on-stage monitoring, DI to the PA
3 - Into the effects return with a mic in front of cab into the PA
4 - Helix -> power amp -> cab -> mic -> PA
5 - Helix -> power amp -> cab, DI -> PA

Of those, the best results came from #4. It sounds so much like a real amp that I genuinely can't tell the difference (using the Powerstage 170).....................

Very interesting and informative @Digitalscream. What is the cab and speaker setup you are using with the Powerstage 170?

Tom_Brookes_Music

Given your amp setup, I'd find it very unlikely that you'll get better results with just a HX Stomp. After some intial misgivings, I'm loving my HX Stomp (I come from a valve amp and pedalboard background!)

HX Stomp for me has gotten rid of all of the drive pedals from my board, the drives are fantastic imo, as are some of the mods etc The wahs aren't that good imo and the pitch stuff is genuinely amongst the worst stuff I've ever encountered in any fx device at any price point. 

In terms of amp modelling, for some stuff I think it's okay......for other stuff I'm not convinced. 

Will it replace your Amp and pedalboard setup.....I'd be amazed if the HX Stomp will tbh.....you only get 6 'blocks'....you can run a simple setup okay, but if you're after a decent clean and driven tone as well as a lead sound etc then it starts to get really complicated.

Like I say, I love mine, it's a tonne of great drive and mod effects.....and a backup 'amp' incase my actual amp dies on a gig......i can't really comment on the FRFR stuff though.

smudge_lad

Tom_Brookes_Music said:

Given your amp setup, I'd find it very unlikely that you'll get better results with just a HX Stomp. After some intial misgivings, I'm loving my HX Stomp (I come from a valve amp and pedalboard background!)

HX Stomp for me has gotten rid of all of the drive pedals from my board, the drives are fantastic imo, as are some of the mods etc The wahs aren't that good imo and the pitch stuff is genuinely amongst the worst stuff I've ever encountered in any fx device at any price point. 

In terms of amp modelling, for some stuff I think it's okay......for other stuff I'm not convinced. 

Will it replace your Amp and pedalboard setup.....I'd be amazed if the HX Stomp will tbh.....you only get 6 'blocks'....you can run a simple setup okay, but if you're after a decent clean and driven tone as well as a lead sound etc then it starts to get really complicated.

Like I say, I love mine, it's a tonne of great drive and mod effects.....and a backup 'amp' incase my actual amp dies on a gig......i can't really comment on the FRFR stuff though.

There was info that surfaced around NAMM that pointed towards the 6 blocks only being temporary and that more would potentially become available at a later point, hopefully during a software upgrade.

To make the most of the Stomp, you really need to pair it with a MIDI controller. I’ve got the Morningstar MC6 which is proving massively popular right now. Small footprint, with 6 foot switches which basically gives you 9 controllable switches (3 on the Stomp) for changing blocks/patches.

So, as @Tom_Brookes_Music mentions above, its very difficult to have a clean, driven and lead sound (with any added FX) set up within the 6 blocks of a given patch. However, with the addition of the Morningstar, this allows me to have, let’s say my clean and driven tones contained within the 6 blocks of one patch, and then to easily switch to another patch which is set up specifically for lead.

It really is a fantastic unit 

delorean

Maybe I’m misunderstanding this whole ‘block’ concept (I’m assuming 1 block = 1 effect/amp/?) – but can you not just create 3 individual patches for your tones to allow you the full amount of blocks for each tone? A clean tone on Patch 1, Drive tone on Patch 2, and a Lead tone on Patch 3 – wouldn’t that give you the full 6 blocks for each different tone and make it easy to switch between them?

 

Separate question – if I wanted to connect an external pedal to the Stomp – i.e my Digitech Mosaic, would that still take-up a block?

gearaddict

Is that 6 blocks including amp and cab and stuff? So if you have amp and IR - you only have 4 blocks?

Just checked the manual and I think this is the case...I guess you get the noise gate for free in the input block.

smudge_lad

gearaddict said:

Is that 6 blocks including amp and cab and stuff? So if you have amp and IR - you only have 4 blocks?

Just checked the manual and I think this is the case...I guess you get the noise gate for free in the input block.

Yes, that’s correct - although you can use 1 block with default “amp and cab” instead of a seperate block for an an IR, so you’d have 5 to play with.

smudge_lad

gearaddict said:

Is that 6 blocks including amp and cab and stuff? So if you have amp and IR - you only have 4 blocks?

Just checked the manual and I think this is the case...I guess you get the noise gate for free in the input block.

Aye, so that’s similar to what I’ve said in my last post - you could have a separate patch for each tone giving you 6 blocks for each. You’re issue then however is switching between everything if you don’t have a MIDI controller as the 3 foot switches can be quite restrictive. If you had the switches set up to allow you to change patches, you then lose the ability to turn blocks on/off within the patch. 

I have mine set up so that the Stomp switches between patches or snapshots, and then the MIDI controller can turn on/off individual blocks within the patch

gearaddict

I'm pretty used to limited blocks, being a GSP1101 user...that has 10 'blocks' but is less flexible in that those are predefined as amp, distortion, delay etc. Also, I never use all 10 at once, so 6 is probably fine. The thing with the digitech unit is that you have gapless patch switching though so you can switch between completely different patches on the fly. I guess with the HX stomp you can have snapshots though.

I guess if you need more flexibility then you should get the LT or full fat.

It's kind of a shame they didn't go for a design more like the Headrush gigboard. But I guess that would then eat too much into the LT sales.

Vaiai

For me - with a Victory V30 and 1x12 cab I found the best sound was direct to PA with an FRFR on stage to monitor - 2nd was in the FX loop of the V30 and using the real cab - I'm now just using Helix LT with a Laney LFR 1x12 powered FRFR and it's easy but not getting the sound I want.
In PA direct the Helix sounds massive and I loved just running a single XLR and boom - done
Looking at going back to a combo to use FX loop with Helix but also to have an amp there as backup - and it's coming out of an actual guitar cab. FRFR is fine for monitoring but doesn't inspire me as a core sound!