Second guessing your ‘loud’ sound based on your ‘home’ sound.

noisepolluter

I suspect I’m overthinking this. 
I just have one amp and a small board with space for one drive pedal - I’d like to make this setup work for both home and playing out without swapping pedals frequently, and without having to put up with a muddy ‘home’ sound just to get a balanced ‘loud’ sound that’s not too bright.

The drive pedal which sounds best at home is Rat-based, naturally quite clear and bright sounding, but I have to roll back the guitar tone a bit on the bridge pickup (and sometimes the pedal tone too) when playing loud. 

I suspect I need to get used to the idea that a ‘loud’ sound needs to cut though rather than be all nice and cosy on the ear like a home practice sound.

ICBM

Why not adjust the tone controls on the amp for the two situations?

noisepolluter

ICBM said:

Why not adjust the tone controls on the amp for the two situations?

This is where I sometimes miss having a full modern EQ with mid, presence, bright switch etc - the DRRI can sometimes feel like a bit of a blunt instrument.

Roland

EQ pedal?

fastonebaz

At home I turn the master down and the treble up. At gigs I do opposite. Works for me

octatonic

fastonebaz said:

At home I turn the master down and the treble up. At gigs I do opposite. Works for me

I also tend to cut bass at a gig.

martinw

The volume changes things, but so does playing with other instruments.
What sounds good at home rarely works for live.
EQ is obviously the first thing to look at, but some kit just doesn't work live, and conversely some things never sound good at home.

ICBM

martinw said:

The volume changes things, but so does playing with other instruments.
What sounds good at home rarely works for live.
EQ is obviously the first thing to look at, but some kit just doesn't work live, and conversely some things never sound good at home.

This is true, but some does. Whether by luck or judgement I've almost always picked gear which can be used perfectly well at any volume or in any context - whether that's a Fender Tweed Champ or a Mesa Trem-o-verb. It is true that I tend to use more powerful amps which can be dialled in without needing to push the power stage - which inherently makes them more volume-independent - but that was certainly not the case with the Champ! I just used it clean at home and overdriven at gigs, and it sounded great for both.

I do honestly think that far too many guitarists don't learn to dial their gear in properly - maybe me being a bass player and a part-time sound engineer helps with that, but I've lost count of the number of times I've heard people say that something like the Fender Hotrod Deluxe is 'too loud for the house', or the volume control taper is 'unusable'... no it isn't. You just need to dial it in carefully and set the EQ differently at different volumes. If a bad player like me can get good sounds out of one at any volume, the problem isn't the amp.

martinw

Dont disagree. Ive been to plenty of gigs where the guitars were badly set up, and in some cases had clearly been set up at home, then not tweaked for live use.

However, with regard to things like the Blues DLX issue, I would add that just because something can be overcome, it doesn't mean it's not a problem!

That's a very amp based reply, but I would say it's at least as try, if not more so, of pickups, pedals etc.

Learning to dial things in is one thing, but when you've got a pedal like the OCD, the bass is fixed, and for me, way too much live. Loved it at home though! Just an example, there are others.

But yes, you can usually get acceptable sounds for both situations, with care and tweakage, but my point was that I have come across some things that, subjectively, don't do that for me, and others have agreed so I know I'm not an aberration!

ICBM

martinw said:

However, with regard to things like the Blues DLX issue, I would add that just because something can be overcome, it doesn't mean it's not a problem!

This is true, and in fact Danny1969's 'Lion Tamer' box is a fantastic solution because it not only makes the volume control setting less critical, it avoids the need to rebalance the channels when you have to turn the whole amp up or down slightly. The amp would have been better designed with an overall post-preamp master volume built in in the first place!

martinw said:

But yes, you can usually get acceptable sounds for both situations, with care and tweakage, but my point was that I have come across some things that, subjectively, don't do that for me, and others have agreed so I know I'm not an aberration!

I don't disagree with that either, it's just that I've noticed that a lot of guitarists really make a rod for their own backs by being 'unable' to play with anything that isn't their own amp, set one particular way... and seeming to have no idea how to adjust it for different situations where that volume and/or tone might not be appropriate.

This also extends to attenuators - a lot of people seem to be under the impression that you can set your amp for the cranked stage tone where it sounds great, then simply turn the attenuator down and have it sound the same at home. (Not helped by some attenuator manufacturers claiming this!) Then when it doesn't, declare that attenuators suck tone...

sweepy

Be prepared to cut the bass, mid and back off the gain when you crank it and you’ll be in the ballpark 

Roland

martinw said:

... Ive been to plenty of gigs where the guitars were badly set up, and in some cases had clearly been set up at home, then not tweaked for live use ...

My guitars sound crap at home. Much too strident and mid heavy. I also cut out a lot of the bass because that’s someone else’s territory.

Last night I went to a local venue, mainly to see what other bands on the local circuit were like. The guitar sounded nicely rounded on its own. Bring in the rest of the band and it disappeared into the mix. Kick in a solo an it was very thin, and barely audible.

LastMantra

Is it the general consensus that amps get brighter the more you turn them up? I'd have thought you would need more treble gigging not less.
Does this maybe also suggest different speaker sizes work better in different situations? 

roberty

I use a THR10 for home practice, I never got the same feel/sound at home from a full sized gigging amp (DRRI included). The THR10 is just so much fun to play through at home. I use crunch mode with dist/fuzz

noisepolluter

roberty said:

I use a THR10 for home practice, I never got the same feel/sound at home from a full sized gigging amp (DRRI included). The THR10 is just so much fun to play through at home. I use crunch mode with dist/fuzz

I do occasionally wonder about getting a digital amp for home. I’ve not tried any of the recent ones - Katana, Valvetronix etc. Should give them a go really.

ICBM

LastMantra said:

Is it the general consensus that amps get brighter the more you turn them up? I'd have thought you would need more treble gigging not less.

No, it totally depends on the amp. Many have treble-pass caps on the volume controls so actually get brighter as you turn them down.

LastMantra said:

Does this maybe also suggest different speaker sizes work better in different situations? 

Not really, although the little 6.5” and 8” ones don’t always sound great at gig volume - but it’s still amp-dependent, since the Tweed Champ sounds fine. I do think they sound ‘better’ with a 12”, but really it’s just ‘different’. My 8”-speaker one sounded fine at gig volume for 50s rock ‘n’ roll.

EricTheWeary

Still trying to get my money's worth out of having just watched Bumblefoot. In isolation a very bright guitar tone with quite a lot of delay. I thought I'm not going to enjoy this. Roll backing tape and...yep, works absolutely perfectly; the delay just adds a bit of ambience and the guitar really clear in the mix.
I'm sure this doesn't help in any practical way and it's not really a new observation but underlined the difference.
Helix LT FWIW. 

roberty

noisepolluter said:

roberty said:

I use a THR10 for home practice, I never got the same feel/sound at home from a full sized gigging amp (DRRI included). The THR10 is just so much fun to play through at home. I use crunch mode with dist/fuzz

I do occasionally wonder about getting a digital amp for home. I’ve not tried any of the recent ones - Katana, Valvetronix etc. Should give them a go really.

Or if you've got a computer hooked up to some speakers you could get an interface and a VST. Sims + full range speakers is the best way to get that sound in the house in my experience. I gave myself tinnitus practicing with a Bassman in my early 20s