adjusting action to eliminate buzz project guitar

finest1

hi all

this is a follow on conversation from a previous thread, but the subject has changed.

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/150605/fall-away#latest 

the guitar has severe buzzing or dead notes on 7-11 frets and some at upper register.

before I started to level the frets. I thought i'd see if I can adjust the action first. I've managed to tweak the action to the point where I've reduced the buzzing.  however I have slight buzzing on the 9th and 10th frets all strings. very slight on 20th fret high e string.  bending high e at 10th fret, buzzes but not at 11th.

getting the guitar to actually "play" with the above has left me with the following stats:

relief in the 7-9th fret

Action stats:

frets              7                  12                         17
low E           2.0mm        2.75mm               2.75mm
high e         1.75mm       2.25mm               2.25mm

I was going to tighten the truss rod a bit, but that would just create more buzzing

based on the above (and your opinions) I wonder if a fret levelling is needed


12fret



17th fret



 

bridge saddles height

paulnb57

Setting up a guitar is a process of many parts, so for example adjusting just the saddle height will not necessarily work...its a balancing act of many parts

This is how I do it..
Adjust truss rod so that with strings tuned to pitch there is a .012inch (12 thou) gap between the 7th fret and the underside of the bottom E
Then adjust saddle height so that from the top of the 12th fret to the underside of each string is 2mm
Adjust intonation
Check nut slot action to about .022 (22thou) from the top of the 3rd fret to the underside of each string.

Now check and see if there are any buzzes, if not great! You can slightly lower the three top (thinnest) strings to about 1.5mm on the high e or until it buzzes, then go up until it stops...maintain a constant curve so for example the B isn't lower than the g or e...
However if it does buzz, at 2mm chances are there are one or more high frets in which case a fret rocker tool is invaluable to find which little joker(s) is causing the issue....
THEN consider a fret dress or try tapping the high frets to reseat ....
After each step above check the guitar is in tune.....

Danielsguitars

Strings look a mile off the fretboard to me and generally i expect to get well under 2mm on the bass side, i aim for around 1.5mm on both sides on a tele, i do need a fairly straight neck thougn and my relief is as little as i can get away with, around 4 or 6 thou is my normal, nut height effects how it plays too

finest1

customkits said:

Strings look a mile off the fretboard to me and generally i expect to get well under 2mm on the bass side, i aim for around 1.5mm on both sides on a tele, i do need a fairly straight neck thougn and my relief is as little as i can get away with, around 4 or 6 thou is my normal, nut height effects how it plays too

I noticed that the saddle height screws are not raising and lowering the saddles efficiently. I had to loosen the string totally, raise, or lower, then retune. I took a screw out to inspect it. it looked ok. im wondering if its the thread in the saddle.  I measured the screw and it measures 7.6mm length and 2.5 mm thick. does that sound about right?  I was wondering if I need to replace the screws, saddles or both.
do you by any chance know if changing the saddles or screws, it has to be a certain type? for example, its a Mexican tele, can I use American parts, or stick with Mexican teles? any alternatives?

thanks

finest1

customkits said:

Strings look a mile off the fretboard to me and generally i expect to get well under 2mm on the bass side, i aim for around 1.5mm on both sides on a tele, i do need a fairly straight neck thougn and my relief is as little as i can get away with, around 4 or 6 thou is my normal, nut height effects how it plays too

yes, that's why my initial idea was to fret dress the neck, but i'd thought i'd try to do a set up in case that worked. im glad I did as the set up brought up a saddle screw situation (see above), thanks

Maynehead

Either you have far too much relief in the neck, or you have an uneven neck/frets.

When setting up a guitar the first thing to check is the relief. But even before that, sight down the neck (from both ends) to check for any twist. If there’s any significant twist, the neck is usually junk.

So, if the neck is good, start by checking the relief by holding down the 1st and 17th frets on the low E and measuring at the 7th. There should be a 0.012” / 0.3mm / business card thickness gap.

Once the relief is set correctly, then adjust your 12th fret action using the bridge saddles and see if you can get it any lower.

you can also check for high frets using a credit card as a rocker.

Danielsguitars

I said get the neck straight first before you do anything, get the relief gap small first
Put a capo on the first fret then either press down on around 15th fret of the low E and high E to see how much you've got, also check the end fret too
If someone has already done fall away it throws this out that's why i check how flat the neck itself is then the frets themselves 

This has to be done before any nut or fret work and set up etc

finest1

customkits said:

I said get the neck straight first before you do anything, get the relief gap small first
Put a capo on the first fret then either press down on around 15th fret of the low E and high E to see how much you've got, also check the end fret too
If someone has already done fall away it throws this out that's why i check how flat the neck itself is then the frets themselves 

This has to be done before any nut or fret work and set up etc

some of the saddle screws are not raising the saddles for me adjust the action.  not sure why its so tight. my allen key is long, small and thin, so I don't want to force it In case either or both damage

Maynehead

finest1 said:

customkits said:

I said get the neck straight first before you do anything, get the relief gap small first
Put a capo on the first fret then either press down on around 15th fret of the low E and high E to see how much you've got, also check the end fret too
If someone has already done fall away it throws this out that's why i check how flat the neck itself is then the frets themselves 

This has to be done before any nut or fret work and set up etc

some of the saddle screws are not raising the saddles for me adjust the action.  not sure why its so tight. my allen key is long, small and thin, so I don't want to force it In case either or both damage

From the pic they look like they’re near the top of their adjustment range anyway. The saddles should never need to be that high in the first place so I think you need to find the source of your symptoms first.

Funkfingers

Photographs of the entire guitar from edgeways on will provide more information than the existing close-up images.

I agree with those who have said that the bridge saddles are set far too high. There is probably a simple explanation for this. e.g. A correspondingly high top nut.

The opening post measurements described as relief are, I suspect, the clearances beneath the open strings and the tops of the frets. 

One other fundamental trio of questions that need answering are the scale length of the guitar, the string gauges and the intended tuning.

andy_k

IMO,
a measurement of the first fret, action, as per the ones given, would help to guess where the relief is set, ie, would explain relief of neck plus fret height / nut . In my experience, when you get to those heights at the bridge, trying to adjust action, will damage the threads in the saddle if adjustments are done under string tension, there is not enough thread to withstand the downward pressure-you will strip out the last few threads, which are all that is available at this height.
I have experienced similar setup nightmares when going up in string guage, in this case I would strip it all down to investigate things first--before even contemplating work on the frets.
1, There could be a shim in the neck pocket--if it had lighter gauge strings previously, the neck relief may have been virtually nothing, The radius looks pretty vintage to me, so bridge has to be set up high to avoid choking when bending.
2, If the neck is slim-ie 60's profile, the truss rod will have a very exaggerated effect, and adjustments under string tension should be done very carefully. If it was me, I would start by taking neck off, this allows proper assessment of the neck- it can be adjusted to be flat, which will determine if there are high frets, also IF there is a shim, it should be removed.
Plenty of good info out there, but usually it is the nut that will be poorly cut, allowing for adjustment downward, factory setups tend to be on the high side, allowing for the odd high fret and generic string guages, putting heavier strings on will definitely require some tweaking.

ICBM

finest1 said:

I noticed that the saddle height screws are not raising and lowering the saddles efficiently. I had to loosen the string totally, raise, or lower, then retune. I took a screw out to inspect it. it looked ok. im wondering if its the thread in the saddle.

The saddles are FAR too high. The tops of the screws should not be below the tops of the saddles or there is a good chance of them falling out of the bottom of the threads, which is what this sounds like - the thread is only in the top of the saddle really, even though there may be a 'partial' thread down the sides of the folded steel.

If you can't get the saddles this low without buzz at the top of the neck, you need to remove any shims in the pocket, dress the frets, or deepen the neck pocket - although a quick fix to avoid that is to 'reverse shim' it.

finest1

hi all
update:

I was going to implement all your advice. because its a project guitar with no history, I should not have assumed anything. so my idea was to put fresh strings, set relief and action. however came across this:
there is no springs on the intonation screws.  so I've stopped there. are all springs the same? if i can get a replacement.
I am wondering about the saddles too. can any style saddle/bridge be used ? idea was to keep it stock but I can't assume these were the correct saddles for the guitar. the spec sheet I got from fender says : Standard 6-Saddle Strings-Thru-Body Bridge

thanks

Maynehead

The springs aren't strictly necessary, as long as you make sure all the intonation screw heads are pushed up tightly against the back of the bridge when you're adjusting them. They won't creep back over time either due to the break angle of the strings holding them in the furthest forward position.

But yes, basically any set of strat bridge saddle springs will do.

finest1

do the type of saddles matter?

Maynehead

finest1 said:

do the type of saddles matter?

No, the fender ones you have should be fine, unless they’re rusted or stripped.

ICBM

Those are the correct - and in most people's opinion, best - saddles. The problem is that they're adjusted far too high - you can clearly see that the screws have fallen out of the bottoms of the threads on several of the saddles.

First, adjust all the screws so the E (both), D and G screws are flush with the tops of the saddles, and the A and B just above the tops. Then see where that gets you with the action over the neck when played above the 12th fret.

finest1

ICBM said:

Those are the correct - and in most people's opinion, best - saddles. The problem is that they're adjusted far too high - you can clearly see that the screws have fallen out of the bottoms of the threads on several of the saddles.

First, adjust all the screws so the E (both), D and G screws are flush with the tops of the saddles, and the A and B just above the tops. Then see where that gets you with the action over the neck when played above the 12th fret.

thanks, will do, I will be getting some springs for it, so project on hold

finest1

paulnb57 said:

Setting up a guitar is a process of many parts, so for example adjusting just the saddle height will not necessarily work...its a balancing act of many parts

This is how I do it..
Adjust truss rod so that with strings tuned to pitch there is a .012inch (12 thou) gap between the 7th fret and the underside of the bottom E
Then adjust saddle height so that from the top of the 12th fret to the underside of each string is 2mm
Adjust intonation
Check nut slot action to about .022 (22thou) from the top of the 3rd fret to the underside of each string.

Now check and see if there are any buzzes, if not great! You can slightly lower the three top (thinnest) strings to about 1.5mm on the high e or until it buzzes, then go up until it stops...maintain a constant curve so for example the B isn't lower than the g or e...
However if it does buzz, at 2mm chances are there are one or more high frets in which case a fret rocker tool is invaluable to find which little joker(s) is causing the issue....
THEN consider a fret dress or try tapping the high frets to reseat ....
After each step above check the guitar is in tune.....

hi all, as telecaster project on hold, I was setting up another project of mine a strat. regarding above from paulnb57, I've got the strat set up with the above, however im still getting buzz. for reference see details:

Low E buzz from 10 fret to 15th
A string buzz on 7-9th fret
D string not so much but only on 2nd fret
G string, sounds slight buzz open but ok
B string hardly detecable
High e slight sizzle around 15-21 frets

relief set at 0.12
Low E action at 2mm 
high e action at 2mm

string gauge 9-42

if I continue to raise action at saddles, then I end up with high saddles (like the telecaster above)

I've followed countless youtube videos etc. I've packed up now so i'll try to pick it up again in a few days

below is how I've left the saddles

thanks

ICBM

Is there a shim in the neck pocket?

finest1

ICBM said:

Is there a shim in the neck pocket?

I don't know. the person I bought it off had the guitar since new and had some mods done to it, like locking tuners. he never mentioned anything about having a full set up or a fret dress etc  all I have done was change the pickups and put on lighter string gauge. however, the frets are vintage style frets, not what im used to, but it did play fine before. hence why I never investigated whether to take off the neck. I didn't feel I needed to.

thanks