Will real amps devalue more if the 'next generation' of modelling gear sounds closer?

Fusionista

You are being nit-picky, possibly because you have an axe to grind (baboom). However I stand corrected, I was using the word because it had already been used. That is the point, valves change their tone even with a small change in ambient temperature.

Frankly, I have NEVER heard a digital amp which sounded good to me live/in the mix, but then to be fair, I am am not a modern metal fan and furthermore rarely hear what I would call a 'good tone' anywhere - even when a valve amp is being used.  When I do I've met a guitarist who knows what he is doing. Last chap was at the Hot Hob Blues Jam in Warley (Brentwood, Essex), roadworn strat straight into a Fuchs combo, awesome.

Drew_TNBD

Nah, I don't really have an Axe to grind so to speak. I just bought one, true. But I also love valve amps, and still have one and still intend to use it in a live situation. I will be using the Axe purely for effects - modulations, reverbs, delays, etc... - with the valve amp.

I had a Marshall JVM last year, and I dug it. It had some issue, so I took it to Marshall and they ended up replacing the main board. When I got the amp back, it just didn't sound the same. Same tubes, same bias value. But it just sounded different. I quickly grew to dislike it. I hate that aspect of valve amps, the way they constantly shift and change. Not all amps do it, and not all of them do it to a massive degree.

For me, the sign of a badly designed valve amp is when the clean tone gets crunchier and crunchier the hotter the amp gets. I think that is just piss poor design personally. I loathed that about the Orange Dual Terror I had. My Diezel doesn't do it. My Diezel in all respects is the best valve amp I've ever had, followed by my old Fryette Sig X, followed by my old Laney VH100R - which our other guitarist is still using!! That amp has been going nearly 7 years now!

Personally, I like modelling and I like valve amps. I don't think you're forced to choose. Use them for the things you like, and try and decrease the things you don't like!

chrispy108

monquixote;227195" said:

Everyone is different, but for me one of the worst things about multi FX is that the default presets sound shit and you have to take time to make them sound good. I can do it, but I find it a tedious process that I really don't enjoy. If I was a famous player I'd happily get someone else to tweak things for me and never touch anything other than the guitar.

This mindset always confuses me. How many pieces of guitar equipment does anyone use on the default? Do you setup every pedal and amp you own with all the knobs pointing straight up? No? So why would you not change the settings on a multi-FX?

I can see why people don't get on with multis, but I don't think shit presets is a valid reason.

I think fundamentally, you're a buttons man or a knobs man.

Fusionista

Wisdom for that.  A wise man makes use of all the tools available.  No doubt if time, money and energy were there I would make another sally into digital, but until I hear someone using eg an AxeFx that I like the sound of, will stick with what I know works for me (although truth to tell I am still messing about with all sorts of valve amps, really must sell some!)

Edit: personally the JVM is way too big, complicated and dare I say it, it sounds dark/muffled to me. I like clear clang.

frankus

It really is subjective and there's goign to be no final answer to this.

Vinyl vs CDs - I played records on a picnic hamper record player from aged 7.. the crackle the smell of baked dust on the valves, waiting for it to power up (increasing the expectation), the big album art, the faff of getting up to move the arm for the tracks I preferred meant the whole album would grow on me and mulling over the sequence of tracks and turning it over for the b-side ... all endear it to me.

It's not that it's better or worse - the rituals are what I love and what bring the joy that allows the emotions to flow.

Multi-FX vs Amps/Pedals - I started out on multi-fx (I only played electric cos I wasn't allowed to play an acoustic after 7pm) ... I had some really crap amps and got used to listening with headphones... multifx do aware with a lot of the audio-tardness for me... a great thing BUT at this stage in my life a very sad thing too. I've not got time to play.

So amps are a quest to distract me and pedals are a hobby much like collecting hot-wheels cars were in the 70s - I like making pedals a whole lot more than I enjoy tweaking sounds on an MFX.

I hate listening to any music on earphones - it needs to fill space and is defined by the room it's in, I love to feel that. I also don't like the lag in digital playing (even if I'm imagining it).

I like some pedals simply because they're prescriptive (like the Telecaster is - it can still do Jazz or Thrash) - I've a Tremulus Lune - but I don't need a trem with 6 knobs to tweak. It's not that I fear being distracted by the options it's just that I'd rather fuck about with one or two more frequently (yes I can configure an expression pedal to do this) I don't want to. The problem with menus and options is I find I only tweak them at jams and frankly it doesn't matter if I use a phaser, chorus, vibe or leslie as long as I get that sound...

If they made dedicated modelling amps that did one thing well and reacted exactly like the thing they're copies of - but lighter, smaller and less tempremental I'd be happy - I don't have that many sounds I want, I think the space pedals take up is necessary in order to tweak them, I'm not that interested in morphing from a pignose 7-200 in a metal bucket and a small clone  to a linn III beat synched oberheim going through a Fender twin using an expression pedal.

It's not a trendy concept I just happen to find the sounds I like come from stuff I grew up around and the best way to capture that is just play them.

Only when the reputation of the modellers is as good as the things they replace (as established and as many people willing to believe it) will hardware stop being valuable... I think that'll be a bad day in some ways as intrinsic will have lost out - great if you want your Hovercar in the shape of a 41 Willis Coupe but sad if you've a love of these artefacts.

Clarky

@Fusionista your comments regarding the Matrix are not quite right. The Matrix is designed to have no tone so as not to add colour. It's aim is to be neutral and transparent. Essentially, just get what comes in and make it loud. But it is designed to feel like a valve amp.

The Axe will make the valve amp tones and this includes all of the tonal dynamic behaviours. Like when you pick soft it'll clean up, when you dig in it'll break up. There are more strings to it's bow than just metal / high gain. The '59 Bassman is a great example. It has those beautiful thick cleans that you'd expect and the breakup [what little there is] comes from the amp model's poweramp stage, so it's very different sounding / feeling to the modern 'hot preamp' types like the 5150.

So yes there are lots of clean and low gain amps in there, and the detail in the modelling is staggering..

Hadley Hockensmith plays and Axe-FX 2 both studio and live.. I think he knows a thing or two about clean and low gain tones. He's a superb player and very fussy about tone. Interestingly, when he tours with Niel Diamond he no longer takes amps.. just the Axe-FX through the PA and his on-stage monitors.. I've sopke to Hadley many times.. he's a real interesting guy.. thing is... he's not a 20 year old headbanger that's only interested in hi-gain and deep tunings.. far from it... he's a great jazzer, blueser, classic rocker, country player and he works with one of the biggest names there is...

I think much of what you've seen heard about the Axe is tainted by the clips your seen.. unfortunately most of those are made by the guys that are most noisy.. on the Fractal website, you'll find that about half of the community are headbangers, and about half are not [blues, funk, soul, country, classic rock, church music etc]

funnily enough.. confirmed headbanger that I am.. my first album with the Axe was poppy / funky rock..

I think that if you tried an Axe for yourself, was truly open minded and left all preconceptions behind, that maybe you'd allow yourself to be quite impressed with it..

most folk I know that hate the Axe and not only never owned one, never tried one out, but have also never been in the same room as one.. not suggesting for one minute that this is you.. but it's an observation I made that I thought was quite interesting...

it'd be like me violently hating the Boogie MkIIC having never actually spent any / enough time with one to make a propper informed judgement... that'd be kinda silly wouldn't it..

Fusionista

Get you and not against the idea, just not seen it work yet. I'm with @Frankus inasmuch as if I could get a Lancia Flavia Coupe made today with modern running gear I would have one - what more do you want in a car ?  Why are most modern cars so ugly and why has my BMW got 3 transmissions and more shit in the I-Drive than I can be bothered to look at ?  http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv274/AndyP335/LanciaFlaviaCoupeConvertible.jpg

monquixote

chrispy108 said:

monquixote;227195" said:

Everyone is different, but for me one of the worst things about multi FX is that the default presets sound shit and you have to take time to make them sound good. I can do it, but I find it a tedious process that I really don't enjoy. If I was a famous player I'd happily get someone else to tweak things for me and never touch anything other than the guitar.

This mindset always confuses me. How many pieces of guitar equipment does anyone use on the default? Do you setup every pedal and amp you own with all the knobs pointing straight up? No? So why would you not change the settings on a multi-FX?

I can see why people don't get on with multis, but I don't think shit presets is a valid reason.

I think fundamentally, you're a buttons man or a knobs man.

I know how to use them i just find it the most boring and tedious thing in the world to do. To me it's about as much fun as doing maths homework, so why would I bother when simpler options abound. With most decent OD pedals you just plug them in and they sound good however you set them (gain to taste, tone to match the guitar). I'm trying to avoid pedals with three band EQs as well now as I've discovered that either they are voiced well and you end up leaving them all on 12 or they aren't and no amount of pissing about with the EQ helps.

PolarityMan

frankus said:

It really is subjective and there's goign to be no final answer to this.

Vinyl vs CDs - I played records on a picnic hamper record player from aged 7.. the crackle the smell of baked dust on the valves, waiting for it to power up (increasing the expectation), the big album art, the faff of getting up to move the arm for the tracks I preferred meant the whole album would grow on me and mulling over the sequence of tracks and turning it over for the b-side ... all endear it to me.

It's not that it's better or worse - the rituals are what I love and what bring the joy that allows the emotions to flow.

Multi-FX vs Amps/Pedals - I started out on multi-fx (I only played electric cos I wasn't allowed to play an acoustic after 7pm) ... I had some really crap amps and got used to listening with headphones... multifx do aware with a lot of the audio-tardness for me... a great thing BUT at this stage in my life a very sad thing too. I've not got time to play.

So amps are a quest to distract me and pedals are a hobby much like collecting hot-wheels cars were in the 70s - I like making pedals a whole lot more than I enjoy tweaking sounds on an MFX.

I hate listening to any music on earphones - it needs to fill space and is defined by the room it's in, I love to feel that. I also don't like the lag in digital playing (even if I'm imagining it).

I like some pedals simply because they're prescriptive (like the Telecaster is - it can still do Jazz or Thrash) - I've a Tremulus Lune - but I don't need a trem with 6 knobs to tweak. It's not that I fear being distracted by the options it's just that I'd rather fuck about with one or two more frequently (yes I can configure an expression pedal to do this) I don't want to. The problem with menus and options is I find I only tweak them at jams and frankly it doesn't matter if I use a phaser, chorus, vibe or leslie as long as I get that sound...

If they made dedicated modelling amps that did one thing well and reacted exactly like the thing they're copies of - but lighter, smaller and less tempremental I'd be happy - I don't have that many sounds I want, I think the space pedals take up is necessary in order to tweak them, I'm not that interested in morphing from a pignose 7-200 in a metal bucket and a small clone  to a linn III beat synched oberheim going through a Fender twin using an expression pedal.

It's not a trendy concept I just happen to find the sounds I like come from stuff I grew up around and the best way to capture that is just play them.

Only when the reputation of the modellers is as good as the things they replace (as established and as many people willing to believe it) will hardware stop being valuable... I think that'll be a bad day in some ways as intrinsic will have lost out - great if you want your Hovercar in the shape of a 41 Willis Coupe but sad if you've a love of these artefacts.

Isn't what you are complaining about the user interface rather than the technology. I can see loads of ways round this, a head unit that had say 12 knowbs, when you switch models a digital "label" on each knob tells you what it is and they behave like normal tone, gain controls etc would be perfectly possible.

The key thing is though the digital model brings the amrginal cost of changing amplifiers down so significantly I can't see how that could be anything other than a good thing.

I'd love an axefx personally but I think its only a matter of time before line6 or roland get their act in gear and make something at a price point I can jsutify more easily so I'm trying to hold out...plus i want a new electric drum kit first so.....

IanSavage

The only way I'd be tempted over to modelling is if a REALLY good-sounding amp came equipped with motorised knobs like wot the old Yamaha DG amps had. Actually, I'd forgotten how much I wanted one of those (especially now they're viewed as outdated and hence tend to be pretty cheap); may have to save an eBay search for one of the heads.

monquixote

IanSavage said:

The only way I'd be tempted over to modelling is if a REALLY good-sounding amp came equipped with motorised knobs like wot the old Yamaha DG amps had. Actually, I'd forgotten how much I wanted one of those (especially now they're viewed as outdated and hence tend to be pretty cheap); may have to save an eBay search for one of the heads.

I remember trying one of those and giggling like a loon when the knobs went around. 

I seem to recall they sounded quite good.

IanSavage

They're actually surprisingly good sound-wise (for 15-year-old technology, certainly); I like that Yamaha didn't go down the 'replication' route and just had 'Clean', 'Crunch' and 'Drive' models (or something like that) in a couple of different flavours of each.

 

I used to use a DG Stomp for my 'core' sound into a flat 'n' loud clean amp, great bit of kit.

ICBM

IanSavage said:

The only way I'd be tempted over to modelling is if a REALLY good-sounding amp came equipped with motorised knobs like wot the old Yamaha DG amps had. Actually, I'd forgotten how much I wanted one of those (especially now they're viewed as outdated and hence tend to be pretty cheap); may have to save an eBay search for one of the heads.

The Fender Cyber Twin (and I think Cyber Deluxe, although I never played one) were like that, but maybe even better - the modelling was actually digitally-controlled analogue, with a couple of valves in the preamp. There were also fully-digital effects, and it had motorised knobs.

They were unfortunately heavy, expensive when they were new (although I doubt they would be now) and not especially well-built… but they did sound very good if I remember rightly.

monquixote

ICBM said:

IanSavage said:

The only way I'd be tempted over to modelling is if a REALLY good-sounding amp came equipped with motorised knobs like wot the old Yamaha DG amps had. Actually, I'd forgotten how much I wanted one of those (especially now they're viewed as outdated and hence tend to be pretty cheap); may have to save an eBay search for one of the heads.

The Fender Cyber Twin (and I think Cyber Deluxe, although I never played one) were like that, but maybe even better - the modelling was actually digitally-controlled analogue, with a couple of valves in the preamp. There were also fully-digital effects, and it had motorised knobs.

They were unfortunately heavy, expensive when they were new (although I doubt they would be now) and not especially well-built… but they did sound very good if I remember rightly.

There is a Youtube clip of Phil Collen saying he took out a Cyber Twin instead of his massive rack system and it sounded just as good.

frankus

PolarityMan said:

Isn't what you are complaining about the user interface rather than the technology.

Wasn't aware I was complaining - actually I wasn't I was saying what I loved about the things I love.

 I can see loads of ways round this, a head unit that had say 12 knowbs, when you switch models a digital "label" on each knob tells you what it is and they behave like normal tone, gain controls etc would be perfectly possible.

I don't think that'd work for me either... I rather like simpler than that - a volume knob (set to half-way) and a tone knob on the neck pickup (bridge should be scritchy in my books, neck can be either)

If you think of most successful things you see conventions: Clutch, Break, Accelerator, stearing wheel on the side furthest fro mthe curb, tuners on the headstock

and in the best products the idea of "affordance" - how fucking annoying are handles on doors you simply push open?

With clarity of purpose you get simplicity of form and it's ever been the case that generic breeds complexity... or loss of functionality for the sake of uniformity.

The key thing is though the digital model brings the amrginal cost of changing amplifiers down so significantly I can't see how that could be anything other than a good thing.

there's no such thing as a free lunch. There's latency, conversion artefacts - and just the fact that there's a lack of presence that inspires...

I think the visceral nature of amps and pedals is a big big factor for me - it might not be for some.

I'd love an axefx personally but I think its only a matter of time before line6 or roland get their act in gear and make something at a price point I can jsutify more easily so I'm trying to hold out...plus i want a new electric drum kit first so.....

I could flog my pedals and amps and buy an AxeFx and monitor -- I'm not interested in it for what I get from playing guitar.

Clarky

frankus said:

It really is subjective and there's goign to be no final answer to this.

Vinyl vs CDs - I played records on a picnic hamper record player from aged 7.. the crackle the smell of baked dust on the valves, waiting for it to power up (increasing the expectation), the big album art, the faff of getting up to move the arm for the tracks I preferred meant the whole album would grow on me and mulling over the sequence of tracks and turning it over for the b-side ... all endear it to me.

It's not that it's better or worse - the rituals are what I love and what bring the joy that allows the emotions to flow.

Multi-FX vs Amps/Pedals - I started out on multi-fx (I only played electric cos I wasn't allowed to play an acoustic after 7pm) ... I had some really crap amps and got used to listening with headphones... multifx do aware with a lot of the audio-tardness for me... a great thing BUT at this stage in my life a very sad thing too. I've not got time to play.

So amps are a quest to distract me and pedals are a hobby much like collecting hot-wheels cars were in the 70s - I like making pedals a whole lot more than I enjoy tweaking sounds on an MFX.

I hate listening to any music on earphones - it needs to fill space and is defined by the room it's in, I love to feel that. I also don't like the lag in digital playing (even if I'm imagining it).

I like some pedals simply because they're prescriptive (like the Telecaster is - it can still do Jazz or Thrash) - I've a Tremulus Lune - but I don't need a trem with 6 knobs to tweak. It's not that I fear being distracted by the options it's just that I'd rather fuck about with one or two more frequently (yes I can configure an expression pedal to do this) I don't want to. The problem with menus and options is I find I only tweak them at jams and frankly it doesn't matter if I use a phaser, chorus, vibe or leslie as long as I get that sound...

If they made dedicated modelling amps that did one thing well and reacted exactly like the thing they're copies of - but lighter, smaller and less tempremental I'd be happy - I don't have that many sounds I want, I think the space pedals take up is necessary in order to tweak them, I'm not that interested in morphing from a pignose 7-200 in a metal bucket and a small clone  to a linn III beat synched oberheim going through a Fender twin using an expression pedal.

It's not a trendy concept I just happen to find the sounds I like come from stuff I grew up around and the best way to capture that is just play them.

Only when the reputation of the modellers is as good as the things they replace (as established and as many people willing to believe it) will hardware stop being valuable... I think that'll be a bad day in some ways as intrinsic will have lost out - great if you want your Hovercar in the shape of a 41 Willis Coupe but sad if you've a love of these artefacts.

so far I think you have the most compelling reasoning in this debate.. one that avoids "this is better" or "that could never be / do.."

you have the things you like for reason of your own.. they make you comfortable and give you joy in ways that seem to go far beyond the act of just playing.. and if being surrounded by lots of boxes in all shapes, sizes and colours whilst soaking up the ambience of toasting dust on glass brings as much to your playing experience as the tones and the notes themselves, then more power to ya.. I totally get that.. it's part of the whole playing vibe for you.. much in the same way that I like my studio to be dimly lit with coloured lighting.. I see folks that have studios / music rooms that are all super modern decor with white eyeball spotlights in the cieling.. looks more like an exec's office and about as creative an enironment as a dentist's reception area..

so yeah... I totally get where you're coming from.. very nicely put..

my music needs are a little different.. it's all about playing and sounding as best you can with the best / most versatile kit you can lay your hands on.. unlike the old days when the band would meet in the studio and stay there for weeks to cut the next album, we all cut our parts in our own studios now.. time is money.. and in my studio I can take more time to find that 'best performance' in me without having to look at the studio clock thinking "only X days left and I still have Y tracks to cut".. in one sense it's better in my own studio.. I just work at the track over and over until I'm certain I've nailed it as best I can.. on the other hand.. you do miss out on the "band adventure" of all being together in the studio.. so there are pro's and con's both ways..

given the nature of work I get [funk, pop, prog metal, prog rock, film trailers - which can throw anything at you] the versatility of the Axe-FX is key.. so it makes sense that I need and have a huge tonal tool kit

the killer thing is having the rig that meets your needs and brings you the most joy.. irrespective of what that rig is or how it works..

EdGrip

Really interesting to hear that about Matrix. At the time (around 2008) I had bought the amp from an auction somewhere for very little money on the offchance that it might be something good. Turned out it was - I was so impressed with the build that I went online to find out more about the company (the manual informed me there were also 300/300 and 500/500 amps in the lineup.)

I could find absolutely nothing about them. No company website, no forum references, nothing. Zilch. 

frankus

Clarky said:

so yeah... I totally get where you're coming from.. very nicely put..

thanks.

my music needs are a little different.. it's all about playing and sounding as best you can with the best / most versatile kit you can lay your hands on.. unlike the old days when the band would meet in the studio and stay there for weeks to cut the next album, we all cut our parts in our own studios now.. time is money.. and in my studio I can take more time to find that 'best performance' in me without having to look at the studio clock thinking "only X days left and I still have Y tracks to cut".. in one sense it's better in my own studio.. I just work at the track over and over until I'm certain I've nailed it as best I can.. on the other hand.. you do miss out on the "band adventure" of all being together in the studio.. so there are pro'sand con's both ways..

given the nature of work I get [funk, pop, prog metal, prog rock, film trailers - which can throw anything at you] the versatility of the Axe-FX key.. so it makes sense that I need and have a huge tonal tool kit

the killer thing is having the rig that meets your needs and brings you the most joy.. irrespective of what that rig is or how it works..

agreed!

I think what we're both describing is the emergence of seperate classes or castes of guitarist - anyone gigging is not likely to want a Fender Twin ... anyone wanting to play for their own entertainment (also might not want a Fender Twin ;^) but a few might.

The question raised was divisive (as they often are in forums) perhaps to provide entertainment but sometimes to try and find an alternate perspective where two concepts are not seen as being in conflict.

I frequently waver as I buy rare pedals and such - I could buy an AxeFx and just get on with playing, skip the whole faff of ebay bids and hunting kit, getting burnt fingers soldering, waiting for spares or components to arrive, paint to dry, etc... it'd be the logical thing to do and at that point I get scared... if I love all of those things around the guitar (which to be honest get in the way of playing the guitar) ... do I really love playing guitar?

Fusionista

Part and parcel isn't it ? But the GAS comes easy, it's following through that is harder.  Having all the gear makes me feel I MUST use it.  The day I stop playing, the gear goes.

Drew_TNBD

All I've been doing all day is daydreaming about going home to fuck around with my Axe FX. Wont be able to do that until tomorrow arvo though.