Line 6 Helix - Why does it sound so god awful

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FiftyshadesofjayFiftyshadesofjay Frets: 606
...for me anyway.

As you may or may not have noticed from some AB tests I did, I just cannot get a workable sound out of the Helix.

Any overdrive tones are just dry and grainy and overly gained, clean is too muddy and overly gained, in fact everything sounds muddy on it. 

Even getting just a basic JCM 800 tone with some crunch and bite is impossible. I just done get it. 

Now im fully willing to admit it’s user error so what am I doing wrong? I have friends that sound amazing out of it but I sound like shit. Kemper, and Axe Fx I have no problem. This is using hardware and native, fiddling with input/output settings makes no difference to the quality of tones I get.

I’m not saying this to slag Helix off by the way, I’m saying it because I’d love it to work for me, because everything else about it is amazing.

So do the amps just sound bad or am I just utterly useless?
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  • ...for me anyway.

    As you may or may not have noticed from some AB tests I did, I just cannot get a workable sound out of the Helix.

    Any overdrive tones are just dry and grainy and overly gained, clean is too muddy and overly gained, in fact everything sounds muddy on it. 

    Even getting just a basic JCM 800 tone with some crunch and bite is impossible. I just done get it. 

    Now im fully willing to admit it’s user error so what am I doing wrong? I have friends that sound amazing out of it but I sound like shit. Kemper, and Axe Fx I have no problem. This is using hardware and native, fiddling with input/output settings makes no difference to the quality of tones I get.

    I’m not saying this to slag Helix off by the way, I’m saying it because I’d love it to work for me, because everything else about it is amazing.

    So do the amps just sound bad or am I just utterly useless?
    Get a blank preset up, add an amp/cab, use the 2204 amp for this example. Go into the cab block and move the low cut to 100hz and the high cut to 5khz. That for me right there would be a tone I could easily use live.
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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 1983
    You’re useless.  ;-)

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 1983
    Check the global eq isn’t on. 

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 2185
    ...for me anyway.



    So do the amps just sound bad or am I just utterly useless?
    I'd say 'B' ;)

    Daft question perhaps, are you plugged in to the 'guitar' input, not the Aux input?
    Create one patch with just te JCM800 amp/cab all set to default settings
    Try the input impedance and pad options
    What are you listening through, FRFR amp, or something else?
    Do me a favour and like this:

    https://www.facebook.com/MarkedCoversBand
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  • meltedbuzzboxmeltedbuzzbox Frets: 8286
    I'm very much in the same boat fella. 

    I find I always need a hi-cut at the end of the chain as anything over 7 or 8k tends to leave a harsh artifact. 
    Thats followed by a 10 band eq and sometime a compressor. 

    Mic choice, for me boils down to a choice of 87 condensor and/or an 121 Ribbon. I think I tend to go with 5" but I do adjust across amps.

    It sounds ok. I personally, would go AX8 over Helix, It sounds better for me. The menu might be annoying but its about the sound not fiddlying with knobs. 

    The Bigsby was the first successful design of what is now called a whammy bar or tremolo arm, although vibrato is the technically correct term for the musical effect it produces. In standard usage, tremolo is a rapid fluctuation of the volume of a note, while vibrato is a fluctuation in pitch. The origin of this nonstandard usage of the term by electric guitarists is attributed to Leo Fender, who also used the term “vibrato” to refer to what is really a tremolo effect.
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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 2362
    It’s a funny old bit of kit, some love it and some just can’t get on with it. I agree that Global EQ and IR’s make a huge difference. Maybe there should be a “it sounds shit, what am I doing wrong” section on the Line 6 Forum :)
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 2530
    You’re useless.  ;-)
    Or you’re not useless, but:
    1. You’re not using the same amp and speaker as your friends.
    2. You set your amps up differently from your friends.
    3. You play differently from your friends, even when playing the same music, and the Helix accentuates that.
    4. You haven’t worked out how to set up the Helix for the way you play.

    Was it Simon Bradley who said “I played Brian May’s guitar through his amp ... and I still sounded like me.” 
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 6211
    How have you got it setup?
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  • Thanks guys, so I’ve tried to create basic presets with the JCM etc and fiddled with hi/low cut etc. Also tried various IR’s but nothing works. I’m definitely in the right input and no global EQ etc. 

    The biggest issue seems to be getting that high end attack which you get with a good Marshall. Nowhere to be seen here. 

    Clean is a massive issue too, it’s always edge of breakup and the low notes are so flubby. Tried tunrning the master and gain down on various models but just turns super thin. 

    I understand the principles of building a preset and hi/lo cut etc, I actually do sound engineering on the side but it seems I still can’t get a good sound out of this thing.
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  • FiftyshadesofjayFiftyshadesofjay Frets: 606
    edited March 28
    BTW it’s definitely set up correctly, and I get similar results on hardware or native so not specific to a certain setting.


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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 2362
    edited March 28
    What are you monitoring it through ?, if it’s any consolation I couldn’t get on with it either
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  • I'm very much in the same boat fella. 

    I find I always need a hi-cut at the end of the chain as anything over 7 or 8k tends to leave a harsh artifact. 
    Thats followed by a 10 band eq and sometime a compressor. 

    Mic choice, for me boils down to a choice of 87 condensor and/or an 121 Ribbon. I think I tend to go with 5" but I do adjust across amps.

    It sounds ok. I personally, would go AX8 over Helix, It sounds better for me. The menu might be annoying but its about the sound not fiddlying with knobs. 

    If you're using Helix direct ie. with amp and cab sims.... and considering its basically a recording signal chain contained with a box then why wouldn't you use a high cut? for that matter why wouldn't you also use compression and possibly some eq?

    If I were mic'ing an amp on stage id be using some eq and compression at the board if I were doing my own sound. Im sure pretty much every FOH engineer would be doing the same. So why wouldnt we have those things inside our digital signal chain?
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  • I run it through studio monitors at home. Same results through powered speakers or our FOH PA also. 
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  • I'm very much in the same boat fella. 

    I find I always need a hi-cut at the end of the chain as anything over 7 or 8k tends to leave a harsh artifact. 
    Thats followed by a 10 band eq and sometime a compressor. 

    Mic choice, for me boils down to a choice of 87 condensor and/or an 121 Ribbon. I think I tend to go with 5" but I do adjust across amps.

    It sounds ok. I personally, would go AX8 over Helix, It sounds better for me. The menu might be annoying but its about the sound not fiddlying with knobs. 

    If you're using Helix direct ie. with amp and cab sims.... and considering its basically a recording signal chain contained with a box then why wouldn't you use a high cut? for that matter why wouldn't you also use compression and possibly some eq?

    If I were mic'ing an amp on stage id be using some eq and compression at the board if I were doing my own sound. Im sure pretty much every FOH engineer would be doing the same. So why wouldnt we have those things inside our digital signal chain?
    As an aside to this I have experimented with Hi and Lo cut etc to no real avail. But also I’d also hope to get a great tone first, as a Helix chain can end where the cab IR is if you want.

    I mean, you should be able to get a good tone with a good amp, SM57 in front and straight to PA right? Cuts and compression etc can come after but shouldn’t be the be all and end all of good tone, more fine tuning or making room in a mix.
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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 2362
    Buy a Kemper ;) runs away v v quickly ;)
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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 1983
    Right, probably gonna end up being a long one this so sit tight. 

    The first and most important thing to remember with Helix is it's as accurate to the real thing as it can get. Every component of every piece of gear is modelled. In doing that, the interaction is also modelled. Therefore, you need to know at least a little bit about the amp you're using before you can get the sound you want. 

    • Example A: I know that with Boogies, they have an unruly low end so whenever I dial up those amps, the bass is rolled off to where I normally use it. 
    With this in mind, lets use the JCM as a good example. Out of the box so to speak, it might not be to your liking. We have a team that creates the default settings for each model. Some of this is personal preference, some is the "classic setting". Whichever one it is, they will be dialling it in for their ears and with the gear they are using at that time. If you're using a Mackie Thump, or a Mission Gemini or the poweramp of a Dumble, it won't be how they've dialled it in. 

    So, back to the amp in question. You're right, Marshalls have a certain attack. A certain bite. I've just dialled it in and got it straight away, BUT, I did what I always do when I use a master volume based Marshall. I put a boost in front. Usually the Klon, gain low, level high. I used the Greenback 25 with a 421 and rolled the low cut down to 180. If you start messing with the Master volume, you will hear it get darker. Why? Because you're cranking the amp. It will get more saturated and darker. Like the real thing. With all of this think real world. 

    Same with clean amps. Get a Deluxe reverb and turn it up. It will get gritty. Also, don't expect to get a great tone switching between 2 amps into the same cab straight away. You need to experiment and find amps that work with the cab you're using. Unless you're switching the whole thing of course. A good way to add presence/ cut/ cleanness to an amp is to go to the internal controls (usually on page 2 of the amp model, and change the bias knob. I like a lot of amps with this all the way up. Takes away some of the natural compression and makes it more dynamic. 

    One other thing to bear (bare?) in mind is pickups. If you're using a Bare Knuckle Juggernaught, you're gonna have a hard time finding a vintage amp/ model that works without gaining up. The JC120 is what you want for this type of application. 

    If you're struggling, PM me and we can talk you through it. I hate people being unsatisfied with anything I'm involved in. I get enough of that with the wife. ;-)

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

    Twitter  |  Instagram  |  YouTube  |  Facebook  |  Website

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  • sweepy said:
    Buy a Kemper ;) runs away v v quickly ;)
    I have a Kemper :)
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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 1983
    Ooh, ooh, if you are using high output pickups, try the input pad. And also, make sure the input impedence is set to auto. 

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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  • Right, probably gonna end up being a long one this so sit tight. 

    The first and most important thing to remember with Helix is it's as accurate to the real thing as it can get. Every component of every piece of gear is modelled. In doing that, the interaction is also modelled. Therefore, you need to know at least a little bit about the amp you're using before you can get the sound you want. 

    • Example A: I know that with Boogies, they have an unruly low end so whenever I dial up those amps, the bass is rolled off to where I normally use it. 
    With this in mind, lets use the JCM as a good example. Out of the box so to speak, it might not be to your liking. We have a team that creates the default settings for each model. Some of this is personal preference, some is the "classic setting". Whichever one it is, they will be dialling it in for their ears and with the gear they are using at that time. If you're using a Mackie Thump, or a Mission Gemini or the poweramp of a Dumble, it won't be how they've dialled it in. 

    So, back to the amp in question. You're right, Marshalls have a certain attack. A certain bite. I've just dialled it in and got it straight away, BUT, I did what I always do when I use a master volume based Marshall. I put a boost in front. Usually the Klon, gain low, level high. I used the Greenback 25 with a 421 and rolled the low cut down to 180. If you start messing with the Master volume, you will hear it get darker. Why? Because you're cranking the amp. It will get more saturated and darker. Like the real thing. With all of this think real world. 

    Same with clean amps. Get a Deluxe reverb and turn it up. It will get gritty. Also, don't expect to get a great tone switching between 2 amps into the same cab straight away. You need to experiment and find amps that work with the cab you're using. Unless you're switching the whole thing of course. A good way to add presence/ cut/ cleanness to an amp is to go to the internal controls (usually on page 2 of the amp model, and change the bias knob. I like a lot of amps with this all the way up. Takes away some of the natural compression and makes it more dynamic. 

    One other thing to bear (bare?) in mind is pickups. If you're using a Bare Knuckle Juggernaught, you're gonna have a hard time finding a vintage amp/ model that works without gaining up. The JC120 is what you want for this type of application. 

    If you're struggling, PM me and we can talk you through it. I hate people being unsatisfied with anything I'm involved in. I get enough of that with the wife. ;-)
    Thanks Ross I’ll have a play around! I have tried various guitars with varying outputs so don’t think that’s the issue. 


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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 2362
    That input impedance can be a pita, I remember far too well that one of the DT25 updates changed your input impedance settings and it sounded like a bloody Blackstar. Auto sort of worked but I found it better to tinker tbh especially with my Strats to achieve some semblance of touch sensitivity It’s one of those bits of kit that has so many options that it’s far too easy to disappear up your own fundament and get distracted
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  • ChuckManualChuckManual Frets: 557
    Roland said:

    “I played Brian May’s guitar through his amp ... and I still sounded like me.” 

    I played Matt Schofield's guitar though his amp ...and I still sounded like shit.
    Not much of the gear, even less idea.
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  • meltedbuzzboxmeltedbuzzbox Frets: 8286
    I'm very much in the same boat fella. 

    I find I always need a hi-cut at the end of the chain as anything over 7 or 8k tends to leave a harsh artifact. 
    Thats followed by a 10 band eq and sometime a compressor. 

    Mic choice, for me boils down to a choice of 87 condensor and/or an 121 Ribbon. I think I tend to go with 5" but I do adjust across amps.

    It sounds ok. I personally, would go AX8 over Helix, It sounds better for me. The menu might be annoying but its about the sound not fiddlying with knobs. 

    If you're using Helix direct ie. with amp and cab sims.... and considering its basically a recording signal chain contained with a box then why wouldn't you use a high cut? for that matter why wouldn't you also use compression and possibly some eq?

    If I were mic'ing an amp on stage id be using some eq and compression at the board if I were doing my own sound. Im sure pretty much every FOH engineer would be doing the same. So why wouldnt we have those things inside our digital signal chain?
    Did I say it shouldn't?
    The Bigsby was the first successful design of what is now called a whammy bar or tremolo arm, although vibrato is the technically correct term for the musical effect it produces. In standard usage, tremolo is a rapid fluctuation of the volume of a note, while vibrato is a fluctuation in pitch. The origin of this nonstandard usage of the term by electric guitarists is attributed to Leo Fender, who also used the term “vibrato” to refer to what is really a tremolo effect.
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  • I'm very much in the same boat fella. 

    I find I always need a hi-cut at the end of the chain as anything over 7 or 8k tends to leave a harsh artifact. 
    Thats followed by a 10 band eq and sometime a compressor. 

    Mic choice, for me boils down to a choice of 87 condensor and/or an 121 Ribbon. I think I tend to go with 5" but I do adjust across amps.

    It sounds ok. I personally, would go AX8 over Helix, It sounds better for me. The menu might be annoying but its about the sound not fiddlying with knobs. 

    If you're using Helix direct ie. with amp and cab sims.... and considering its basically a recording signal chain contained with a box then why wouldn't you use a high cut? for that matter why wouldn't you also use compression and possibly some eq?

    If I were mic'ing an amp on stage id be using some eq and compression at the board if I were doing my own sound. Im sure pretty much every FOH engineer would be doing the same. So why wouldnt we have those things inside our digital signal chain?
    As an aside to this I have experimented with Hi and Lo cut etc to no real avail. But also I’d also hope to get a great tone first, as a Helix chain can end where the cab IR is if you want.

    I mean, you should be able to get a good tone with a good amp, SM57 in front and straight to PA right? Cuts and compression etc can come after but shouldn’t be the be all and end all of good tone, more fine tuning or making room in a mix.
    You really think you can get a "great" tone by shoving a 57 in front of the grill and sticking it through FOH? Im pretty sure the next time you're in a venue and you have a chance to mute your amp and hear the un-eq'd or compressed guitar sound coming out of the PA you'd be horrified!
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  • I'm very much in the same boat fella. 

    I find I always need a hi-cut at the end of the chain as anything over 7 or 8k tends to leave a harsh artifact. 
    Thats followed by a 10 band eq and sometime a compressor. 

    Mic choice, for me boils down to a choice of 87 condensor and/or an 121 Ribbon. I think I tend to go with 5" but I do adjust across amps.

    It sounds ok. I personally, would go AX8 over Helix, It sounds better for me. The menu might be annoying but its about the sound not fiddlying with knobs. 

    If you're using Helix direct ie. with amp and cab sims.... and considering its basically a recording signal chain contained with a box then why wouldn't you use a high cut? for that matter why wouldn't you also use compression and possibly some eq?

    If I were mic'ing an amp on stage id be using some eq and compression at the board if I were doing my own sound. Im sure pretty much every FOH engineer would be doing the same. So why wouldnt we have those things inside our digital signal chain?
    Did I say it shouldn't?
    You made it sound like it should be unnecessary which it isnt
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  • I'm very much in the same boat fella. 

    I find I always need a hi-cut at the end of the chain as anything over 7 or 8k tends to leave a harsh artifact. 
    Thats followed by a 10 band eq and sometime a compressor. 

    Mic choice, for me boils down to a choice of 87 condensor and/or an 121 Ribbon. I think I tend to go with 5" but I do adjust across amps.

    It sounds ok. I personally, would go AX8 over Helix, It sounds better for me. The menu might be annoying but its about the sound not fiddlying with knobs. 

    If you're using Helix direct ie. with amp and cab sims.... and considering its basically a recording signal chain contained with a box then why wouldn't you use a high cut? for that matter why wouldn't you also use compression and possibly some eq?

    If I were mic'ing an amp on stage id be using some eq and compression at the board if I were doing my own sound. Im sure pretty much every FOH engineer would be doing the same. So why wouldnt we have those things inside our digital signal chain?
    As an aside to this I have experimented with Hi and Lo cut etc to no real avail. But also I’d also hope to get a great tone first, as a Helix chain can end where the cab IR is if you want.

    I mean, you should be able to get a good tone with a good amp, SM57 in front and straight to PA right? Cuts and compression etc can come after but shouldn’t be the be all and end all of good tone, more fine tuning or making room in a mix.
    You really think you can get a "great" tone by shoving a 57 in front of the grill and sticking it through FOH? Im pretty sure the next time you're in a venue and you have a chance to mute your amp and hear the un-eq'd or compressed guitar sound coming out of the PA you'd be horrified!
    I said “good”. Also, I’ve done that loads and yes you can get a decent tone. Obviously I prefer to sculpt it afterwards but if you can’t get a decent base tone to work with out of a good player, good amp and an SM57 no amount of post processing will save you.
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  • FiftyshadesofjayFiftyshadesofjay Frets: 606
    edited March 28
    And I’ve had some success with a decent 800 tone! Using an Redwirez greenback IR. I started with everything at 0 and fiddled with it until it was something I liked. Ended up cutting the bass substantially and cranking the mids. Treble and presence maxed out.

    Added an EQ and boosted the highs further, especially around 4K and 8k. 

    IR was fairly dark but had a good midrange. Those settings won’t make sense for brighter IR’s.

    But I like what I’m hearing! 
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  • I'm very much in the same boat fella. 

    I find I always need a hi-cut at the end of the chain as anything over 7 or 8k tends to leave a harsh artifact. 
    Thats followed by a 10 band eq and sometime a compressor. 

    Mic choice, for me boils down to a choice of 87 condensor and/or an 121 Ribbon. I think I tend to go with 5" but I do adjust across amps.

    It sounds ok. I personally, would go AX8 over Helix, It sounds better for me. The menu might be annoying but its about the sound not fiddlying with knobs. 

    If you're using Helix direct ie. with amp and cab sims.... and considering its basically a recording signal chain contained with a box then why wouldn't you use a high cut? for that matter why wouldn't you also use compression and possibly some eq?

    If I were mic'ing an amp on stage id be using some eq and compression at the board if I were doing my own sound. Im sure pretty much every FOH engineer would be doing the same. So why wouldnt we have those things inside our digital signal chain?
    As an aside to this I have experimented with Hi and Lo cut etc to no real avail. But also I’d also hope to get a great tone first, as a Helix chain can end where the cab IR is if you want.

    I mean, you should be able to get a good tone with a good amp, SM57 in front and straight to PA right? Cuts and compression etc can come after but shouldn’t be the be all and end all of good tone, more fine tuning or making room in a mix.
    You really think you can get a "great" tone by shoving a 57 in front of the grill and sticking it through FOH? Im pretty sure the next time you're in a venue and you have a chance to mute your amp and hear the un-eq'd or compressed guitar sound coming out of the PA you'd be horrified!
    I said “good”. Also, I’ve done that loads and yes you can get a decent tone. Obviously I prefer to sculpt it afterwards but if you can’t get a decent base tone to work with out of a good player, good amp and an SM57 no amount of post processing will save you.
    compression and eq is not post processing, they are vital parts of any mic signal chain whether you're recording or on stage. honestly though if it isn't working for you by this point then id just move on, life is too short to struggle with gear
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  • Ooh, ooh, if you are using high output pickups, try the input pad. And also, make sure the input impedence is set to auto. 


    I heard a little birdy say Plini done this entire EP with Naitve, you know if that's true Ross?
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  • shuikitshuikit Frets: 156
    If you're connecting the Helix up via XLR then make sure that phantom power is switched OFF 
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  • rossyamaharossyamaha Frets: 1983
    Ooh, ooh, if you are using high output pickups, try the input pad. And also, make sure the input impedence is set to auto. 


    I heard a little birdy say Plini done this entire EP with Naitve, you know if that's true Ross?
    Genuinely no idea I'm afraid. Never heard of them but sounds great. 

    I play guitar and take photos of stuff. I also like beans on toast.

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