One for the pickup winders out there... What makes a pickup "unique"?

PonchoGreg

Hey guys,

just pondering an interesting question at the moment, and I'm sufficiently ignorant of all things electronics/physics to genuinely have no idea if it is actually a stupid question!

All specs/materials being equal across two different pickups (magnet, wire used, resistance, cover or not, etc), will they sound very similar? In other words I'm trying to figure out if there are any other factors that would dramatically alter a pickup's basic tone, to do with winding technique or anything else that I might not have thought about.

You often see claims from the big winders (SD, Dimarzio, etc) that this model or the other offers a unique sound, really tailored to an application in particular - when their competitors often offer similar specced pickups. I'm just curious to see where the marketing stuff starts to take over!

Funkfingers

PonchoGreg said:

I'm trying to figure out if there are any other factors that would dramatically alter a pickup's basic tone, to do with winding technique or anything else that I might not have thought about.

• The magnetic material(s)
• The dimensions and positioning of the magnet(s) with respect to the coil(s)
• The dimensions of the bobbin forms
• The dimensions of the coil(s)
• The materials used for polepieces
• How the pickup is fastened to the guitar body
• The control circuitry

My list is by no means comprehensive. The professional builders on this forum can tell you plenty more stuff. On the other hand, they have worked hard to get where they are today. They cannot be expected to give away decades of experiential knowledge for nowt.

Even armed with all of the train spotter information, the only real test is to install a pickup in a guitar and play through your gear to see whether it suits your requirements.

PonchoGreg said:

I'm just curious to see where the marketing stuff starts to take over!

In my opinion, the marketing takes over when some customers say to the makers, "I want to sound like _____________ (fill in the blank). Make it so." 




Also in my opinion, your question stands a better chance of receiving replies from the pickup makers who grace this forum if you either tag them or use the thread starter editing tools - top right, next to the bookmark star - to move this Discussion to the Made In The UK section.

PonchoGreg

Yeah makes total sense - there's stuff on there re: the actual assembly I'd have never considered.

And this was by no means a way for me to get recipes to build pickups! I know full well it takes some real skill and countless hours of experimentation. Having had a couple of sets wound by the likes of @OilCityPickups and @Alegree I totally get the extra clarity offered by pickups handwound with care and knowledge.

I was more curious in terms of overall EQ profile, more than anything.

OilCityPickups

PonchoGreg said:

Hey guys,

just pondering an interesting question at the moment, and I'm sufficiently ignorant of all things electronics/physics to genuinely have no idea if it is actually a stupid question!

All specs/materials being equal across two different pickups (magnet, wire used, resistance, cover or not, etc), will they sound very similar? In other words I'm trying to figure out if there are any other factors that would dramatically alter a pickup's basic tone, to do with winding technique or anything else that I might not have thought about.

You often see claims from the big winders (SD, Dimarzio, etc) that this model or the other offers a unique sound, really tailored to an application in particular - when their competitors often offer similar specced pickups. I'm just curious to see where the marketing stuff starts to take over!

In addition to what  @Funkfingers said:  The fit and tightness of the components used, the winding pattern and wire tightness (as this changes the pickup's distributed capacitance), the time potted and the medium used for potting (assuming potted is what's required), and yes, care in assembly ... 
Oh and it's turns not DC resistance that would have to be equal. At Oil City we measure and grade wire batches, as diameter can vary even in these computer controlled modern times. When wire suppliers 'decant' wire of huge rolls down into the 5 kilo ones we use, it can get stretched ... that's allowed for in the specs, but sometimes it goes a little under gauge ... or doesn't stretch at all so is 'over gauge. By the way, we keep some of those 'part gauge' rolls for fine tuning on some custom jobs.      

Alegree

The only other factors that dramatically affect a pickup I believe are cover material and size/shape, and the coil tension.

Everything else is likely to be  very subtle or could (and has been) argued to have a negligible difference.

PonchoGreg

Thanks guys - turns out the winding technique itself is pretty key then!

OilCityPickups

PonchoGreg said:

Thanks guys - turns out the winding technique itself is pretty key then!

A pickup is a capacitor in its own right. if you think of a foil cap being layers of metal separated by a medium, then it's obvious why winding pattern makes a difference: Like the layers of foil, wire laid almost parallel and separated by insulation develops capatecence, which in turn acts like a capacitor on a tone pot. the more parallel the turns are, the higher the capacitance and the more the treble is smoothed off. If you cross the wires at an angle to each other, less capacitance builds up, and more high end is let through.
This is in itself a tool ... higher capacitance is not necessarily a bad thing. Gibson machine wound their PAFs but with quite a fast 'traverse' on the wire feed, so the capacitance is higher than say a hand laid 'scatter wound' pickup, but lower than many mass produced pickups where the wire is simply laid up with the turns almost parallel. Pickup winders refer to the angle at which the wire crosses to be the 'turns per layer' as a layer is one complete traverse of the wire feed. So with a PAF bobbin, 80 or 90 turns per layer has the wire almost parallel on each layer, where as say 20 turns per layer has the wire traversing much faster and the angle between successive wire layers more extreme. The pickup with the high turns per layer will be noticeably less trebly than the one with 20.
There is a sweet spot with each pickup design where the turns per layer, set against the magnet strength and the actual number of turns on the bobbin create the most pleasing tone. 

I've had the germ of an idea for quite a while that may come about later this summer or in the autumn if it proves practical: much as some luthiers do 'build your own guitar' courses I'm gauging if there would be interest in 'build your own pickup' days at Oil City. Your chance to come and play with the technology and drink good coffee, while coming away with a set of pickups of your choice, hand made by you.  

PonchoGreg

OilCityPickups said:

I've had the germ of an idea for quite a while that may come about later this summer or in the autumn if it proves practical: much as some luthiers do 'build your own guitar' courses I'm gauging if there would be interest in 'build your own pickup' days at Oil City. Your chance to come and play with the technology, drink good coffee, while coming away with a set of pickups of your choice, hand made by you.  

That would be incredible - I'm sure you'd get a lot of take-up on that (myself included, being London-based)

JayGee

OilCityPickups said:

I've had the germ of an idea for quite a while that may come about later this summer or in the autumn if it proves practical: much as some luthiers do 'build your own guitar' courses I'm gauging if there would be interest in 'build your own pickup' days at Oil City. Your chance to come and play with the technology and drink good coffee, while coming away with a set of pickups of your choice, hand made by you.  

I’m right there for this one, for that matter if you just did some kind of open day to let people come and see the raw materials, the processes and how they come together I’d still be camping outside your door on the day! :-)

Funkfingers

Some sense of what goes into building a pickup could be conveyed via a well-made video presentation.

i.e. Enough to inform, entertain and get the majority of punters to appreciate;
1) that the task is probably beyond them
2) why the prices for bespoke pickups are (usually) justifiable.

BeardyAndy

OilCityPickups said:

I've had the germ of an idea for quite a while that may come about later this summer or in the autumn if it proves practical: much as some luthiers do 'build your own guitar' courses I'm gauging if there would be interest in 'build your own pickup' days at Oil City. Your chance to come and play with the technology and drink good coffee, while coming away with a set of pickups of your choice, hand made by you.  

I'd be up for this too, sound like a fantastic idea.

mudslide73

BeardyAndy said:

OilCityPickups said:

I've had the germ of an idea for quite a while that may come about later this summer or in the autumn if it proves practical: much as some luthiers do 'build your own guitar' courses I'm gauging if there would be interest in 'build your own pickup' days at Oil City. Your chance to come and play with the technology and drink good coffee, while coming away with a set of pickups of your choice, hand made by you.  

I'd be up for this too, sound like a fantastic idea.

Yes indeed. I'd be there with my boots polished. A great idea Ash. 

OilCityPickups

Funkfingers said:

Some sense of what goes into building a pickup could be conveyed via a well-made video presentation.

i.e. Enough to inform, entertain and get the majority of punters to appreciate;
1) that the task is probably beyond them
2) why the prices for bespoke pickups are (usually) justifiable.

As soon as we are in our new premises and settled in I have some interesting plans:
Firstly as I mentioned above I shall be holding pickup making days.
Secondly, we will have space for setting up cameras for video work, and I plan to wake up our dormant YouTube channel and make some workshop videos. 
There will be a few of basic wiring techniques that I get asked about all the time ... wiring up your own harnesses, soldering, changing pickup covers etc. 

OilCityPickups

Funkfingers said:

Some sense of what goes into building a pickup could be conveyed via a well-made video presentation.

i.e. Enough to inform, entertain and get the majority of punters to appreciate;
1) that the task is probably beyond them
2) why the prices for bespoke pickups are (usually) justifiable.

As soon as we are in our new premises and settled in I have some interesting plans:
Firstly as I mentioned above I shall be holding pickup making days.
Secondly, we will have space for setting up cameras for video work, and I plan to wake up our dormant YouTube channel and make some workshop videos. 
There will be a few of basic wiring techniques that I get asked about all the time ... wiring up your own harnesses, soldering, changing pickup covers etc. 

Alegree

OilCityPickups said:

Funkfingers said:

Some sense of what goes into building a pickup could be conveyed via a well-made video presentation.

i.e. Enough to inform, entertain and get the majority of punters to appreciate;
1) that the task is probably beyond them
2) why the prices for bespoke pickups are (usually) justifiable.

As soon as we are in our new premises and settled in I have some interesting plans:
Firstly as I mentioned above I shall be holding pickup making days.
Secondly, we will have space for setting up cameras for video work, and I plan to wake up our dormant YouTube channel and make some workshop videos. 
There will be a few of basic wiring techniques that I get asked about all the time ... wiring up your own harnesses, soldering, changing pickup covers etc. 

Time to buy shares in Elektrisola!

OilCityPickups

Alegree said:

OilCityPickups said:

Funkfingers said:

Some sense of what goes into building a pickup could be conveyed via a well-made video presentation.

i.e. Enough to inform, entertain and get the majority of punters to appreciate;
1) that the task is probably beyond them
2) why the prices for bespoke pickups are (usually) justifiable.

As soon as we are in our new premises and settled in I have some interesting plans:
Firstly as I mentioned above I shall be holding pickup making days.
Secondly, we will have space for setting up cameras for video work, and I plan to wake up our dormant YouTube channel and make some workshop videos. 
There will be a few of basic wiring techniques that I get asked about all the time ... wiring up your own harnesses, soldering, changing pickup covers etc. 

Time to buy shares in Elektrisola!

You could be right lol
for the more fumble fingered I may need to get a larger scrap copper wire bin :-)
As it is we usually get our Oil City Christmas drinks bash funded by the scrap wire from rewinds ...