can different types of ECC83s make a significant difference

Tat2dstesh

I can hear preamp valve difference in my dual terror alot, but I actually prefer the JJ in that amp, I tried a couple of Tad's in the main gain stages and it became very bright and scratchy to my ears. 
On the other had I have a combo of Tung Sol v1 and JJ v2 and probably going for Sovtek lps in the PI and that sounds much better than all JJ.. plus I prefer the tungsol el34's over the JJ el34s

PolarityMan

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

i guess the design goal is more consistency?

The design goal is very high gain without instability. Caps like this are normal in high-gain amps, which is why they tend to be less valve-sensitive.

Im totally interpreting that as an endorsement of high gain amps

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

Im totally interpreting that as an endorsement of high gain amps

It is if you want that sound . In fact, even discounting instability, you usually don't want excessive high frequencies in that sort of amp, it can sound too buzzy.

What I don't understand is the use of them in non-high-gain amps - then it just serves to muddy the tone. A clean amp shouldn't need any sort of HF suppression - and almost no vintage amps have it, about the only one I can think of is the tiny cap across the PI outputs on the Bassman/Marshall-type circuit.

MichaelAT

Microphonics / tube noise is absolutely real and very much noticeable. I have some glass that just does not work in certain amps, such as an Ei longplate that is famous for squealing in high gain amps. Unfortunately one of my Tung Sols is very noisy, so the more gain you use the more irritating it gets.

As for the sound - for me personally, I hear little to no difference. I read stuff like Myles Roses tube primers long time ago and kept buying tubes and experimenting. Stopped it a while ago, as I decided it's not worth it for me. I won't say it's all imagination, but I'm quite happy the way it is as it saves me lots of money that I'd need to spend on NOS glass otherwise.

normula1

I had a Blackstar HT5 with a dodgy preamp valve this weekend and had a play with various valves. Not surprisingly given the architecture of the amp, most sounded quite similar with the exception of an old Groove Tubes 7025 which I already knew yo be bright sounding and an old Sovtek 12AX7WB which really improved the clean channel. 

gringopig

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steven70

Thanks @gringopig, I hadn't seen the Harma, will experiment. Those Mullards really do make a difference tho, even compared to the Tung Sol. That's in both the Nolan and 'Bassman' - maybe the Mullards are knackered and for some perverse reason, I prefer the sound (I do like a darker tone) ...all good fun anyway... 

gringopig

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ToneControl

I don't bother searching for old 12ax7 valves 

However, I've paid top prices for new EF86 valves, cryo ones, etc. All have been microphonic.
I've ended up buying a box of 5 or 10 old, used EF86s and simply picking one that sounds good and is not microphonic

I wonder if anyone is now making good, quiet EF86 valves?

hywelg

ToneControl said:

I don't bother searching for old 12ax7 valves 

However, I've paid top prices for new EF86 valves, cryo ones, etc. All have been microphonic.
I've ended up buying a box of 5 or 10 old, used EF86s and simply picking one that sounds good and is not microphonic

I wonder if anyone is now making good, quiet EF86 valves?

Mullards aren't that expensive and are very good, use them in my DZ30. 

ToneControl

hywelg said:

ToneControl said:

I don't bother searching for old 12ax7 valves 

However, I've paid top prices for new EF86 valves, cryo ones, etc. All have been microphonic.
I've ended up buying a box of 5 or 10 old, used EF86s and simply picking one that sounds good and is not microphonic

I wonder if anyone is now making good, quiet EF86 valves?

Mullards aren't that expensive and are very good, use them in my DZ30. 

I wonder if you have my old DZ30
does it have VVR?

hywelg

No it has Powerscaling,  and I built it a few years ago now. 

crunchman

gringopig said:

I am led to believe that there are only 3 sources of modern valve: Shuguang in China, New Sensor corporation in Russia and JJ Electronic in Slovakia and most of the brands available are either OEM like JJ or bought in bulk, tested and filtered for rejection and re branded.

So a lot of the 'tests' of valves are just revealing small differences (if any) between valves from the same manufacturer.

Some of the factories produce different ranges though.

 Going back a few years, the Sovtek factory was making a 12AX7WA, 12AX7WB, 12AX7LPS, plus the EHX 12AX7 (and maybe a few more).

I'm not sure what's out there now, as I have lots of spare valves, and use my Kemper most of the time, so I'm not getting through them very quickly.  At my current rate of usage, I probably won't ever need to buy another ECC83/12AX7.

lukedlb

After having a problem with losing volume on one of my amps, I ordered a couple of new gold lions and put together a collection of JJs and Sovtek and Unknowns from different amps. The amp built with JJs in mind continues to work perfectly with the same JJs. Valve substitution did not improve the tone and in some cases muddied the tone. A vintage amp of mine suffered according to the gain the valve produced, not only in the first position. It required heavy experimentation, which at times increased or decreased the clean volume at 1 and produced amp drive at higher volume levels. In fact, I used to tame it with an AY7 instead of an AX7. 
I should point it out here and indeed encourage anyone exploring tone with amps and pedals by doing the opposite to what you expect should be done. In this case, I put 3 gold lions in the vintage amp, expecting the Gain of each valve to exaggerate the volume and drive of the amp at the expense of the Cleans. Instead, the cleans are more defined and closer to the amp's ideal amp tone. Those same gold lions sound muffled in the Redplate aforementioned. 
I'm beginning to think it doesn't depend on the valve, rather the amplifier. Yes, that sounds obvious; yet too often we believe that NOS is simply better than New or that one New brand is better than another. There's an EHX AX7 in the drive section of the Redplate, added by the previous owner, that I quickly swapped for a gold lion, only to discover the EHX sounded much better.

gringopig

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Funkfingers

ToneControl said:

However, I've paid top prices for new EF86 valves, cryo ones, etc. All have been microphonic.
I've ended up buying a box of 5 or 10 old, used EF86s and simply picking one that sounds good and is not microphonic

I wonder if anyone is now making good, quiet EF86 valves?

I have a friend who wonders how much (or little) you paid for NOS EF86 (6267) valves. My friend has two, boxed, as new, never been used and, therefore, untested.

steven70

Removed.
Silly hour.

RiftAmps

gringopig said:

I think a lot of these valves are quite variable in terms of actual gain - even within a brand and type. An ECC83 is meant to be 100X gain I think but I'll bet if you measured it when correctly biased they would vary quite a lot.

Yes, an ‘83 has a gain factor of 100, but no amp that I know of runs one anywhere near that. Most seem to be configured in the 40-70 range

theflyisback

I’ve just put 3 Mullard 12ax7s in my Laney VC30 (replacing the original stock ones) and it’s like night and day.  I would say it’s turned a fairly average gain channel which I usually avoided - in lieu of clean and pedals - into a sweet singing creamy tone fest. 

It’s definitely affected the break up like you wouldn’t believe. 

I think the overall amp volume is a little lower which is a good thing for the way I’m using it. 

The amp has a completely different character. 

I haven't give it a loud run out yet and to be honest it’s needed a tube change for a while but I’m firmly in a ‘different valves do make a difference’ camp big time

WiresDreamDisasters

I used to "pooh pooh" or even "poo poo" or if you prefer, "shit shit" the whole preamp tube thing.

But then i tried it.

I had about 15 tubes kicking around in various amps. Pulled them all. Switched them in and out of a Satriani JVM.

Noticed massive differences in tonality and levels of gain. Massive.

That was case closed for me.