Questions about Bass playing

UnclePsychosis

Rocker said:

@chrispy108, You inadvertently found yourself in the same position as I was in some time ago.  It is impossible to 'prove' or 'disprove' something when the effect or non effect is audio sound quality.  Science is absolute, audio is not.  Science uses measurements, audio uses your ears.  Sometimes the two don't meet.  

One day, when you've got nothing else on, you need to google the phrases "placebo effect", "confirmation bias", and "double blind testing". 

chrispy108

Don't be bringing your science in here @UnclePsychosis

What about the ears!

http://toetoheal.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/kozzi-human-male-ear-588-x-883.jpg

Think of the ears!

http://www.womansday.com/cm/womansday/images/Wq/9-Things-You-Didn-t-Know-About-Your-Ears-mdn.jpg

Put the science down and use your ears

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01735/ears_1735848c.jpg

Paul_C

you could do worse than a Roland Cube (preferably a used Cube 30 IMHO)

Rocker

Guys, I will respond in full when I am at my desktop computer. Be patient....

Rocker

@ICBM and @Fretmeister, apologies for the delay in replying, I missed the notification flags due to other topics being replied to.

Firstly Fret, you completely missed the humor in my post!!  My reference to court was more of the theatrical variety, the famous Bardell -v- Pickwick case was in my mind when I wrote my reply.

In the past ICBM, you admitted that cables can change the sound.  We disagreed on the degree of change but you were insistent that guitar leads and hi-fi interconnects affect sound.  All cables have recognized electrical characteristics - resistance, capacitance and inductance [aka RCL].  There are standard measurements for these characteristics.  Each RCL element will change/alter the perceived sound to some extent.

The question must be asked: if the measurements of a cable are taken and another cable with exactly the same RCL measurements substituted, would the sound remain the same?  TBH I have no idea, it might or there again it might not.  If RCL were the only factors involved it would appear that it might not.

The real question is what is the purpose of a hi-fi cable or indeed a hi-fi system?  IMHO it is to replay music.  And what is music? Again IMHO music is sound, not just any sound but sound with rhythm, tempo and emotion.  Nobody would call the sound of a jack hammer as music but a couple of 'average' musicians in a pub can play a tune which connects with the people there.  They are moved by the sound.  That is music IMHO.

A lot of recorded music has that emotional quality recorded as well as the sound of the notes.  If the cable allows more of that emotional feeling 'through' then that is a good cable.

But how can you measure emotion?  Or any human feeling such as pleasure, joy, sadness, taste, hearing, sight etc.  The short answer is that you cannot.  You cannot measure the taste of a wine for example.  You can measure some or most of the qualities [tannin etc.] of a wine but some people are prepared to pay upwards of £500 for a bottle of wine but you can get a bottle of wine in your local supermarket for less than a tenner.

My point is: good hi-fi components will sound good if basic cables are used to connect it up.  But considerably better when better [not necessarily more expensive] cables are used.  Nothing to do with RCL, the only requirement is to actually listen to the music the system is playing.  You will hear the sound of the instruments and more of the emotion of the player when the 'better' cable is used.  In other words more music.

Someone pointed out a 'flaw' in the cable advert alluded to by Fretmeister.  The mains cable was claimed to make the sound louder or words to that effect.  I don't know about that but in my system, the better cables lower the noise floor and thus increase the perceived dynamic range.  Quiet instruments and voices are quieter thus the loud voices and sounds appear louder.  That is what I think is happening but I am open to correction on this notion.  But it definitely holds up in my music room.

ICBM

Rocker said:

In the past ICBM, you admitted that cables can change the sound.  We disagreed on the degree of change but you were insistent that guitar leads and hi-fi interconnects affect sound.  All cables have recognized electrical characteristics - resistance, capacitance and inductance [aka RCL].

Absolutely, but that does *not* mean that cables used for different purposes all change the sound! This is a classic mistake made by people who don't understand how things work - or who are using one fact to insist that another *must* be true. Those electrical characteristics have to be applicable to the type of signal or current being carried by the cable for them to matter.

Signal interconnects (hi-fi or guitar) very definitely change the sound. The property that matters is capacitance.

Speaker cables can change the sound if they are inadequate. The property that matters is resistance.

Power cables cannot change the sound unless they are grossly inadequate. The property that matters is also resistance.

Notice that the property that matters is *different* for interconnects compared to the other two. Also, once the resistance falls to a small enough value, making it still smaller makes no further difference. The same is actually true for capacitance in signal cables, if it's possible to make it small enough.

If you still really think that a power cable can change the sound, please answer this question: how far is it from your house to the local substation? (Or the transformer, usually up on an electricity pole, where the 11KV is stepped down to 240V if you live out in the country.)

Saying that you've replaced the power cable to the wall is meaningless - the wall socket is not a source of electricity, it's just a connection point. To get there, the electricity has had to pass through a few tens of feet of cheap solid copper cable with a few screw connections along the way back to the distribution box in your house, and before that probably a few hundred yards (see your answer to the previous question) back the transformer, which is the closest that can be considered the 'source'. If you haven't replaced all this cable with your super silver cable as well, the last two metres can't make any difference!

Just think about this: if you had some cheap copper speaker cables, you would presumably say that they reduced the sound quality. If you were to add on a couple of inches of silver cable using a screw terminal block to each one at the speaker end, would it improve the sound? And if so, why and how? And if you think it wouldn't, why would doing the same thing to the mains cable on a slightly larger scale make any difference?

If for some reason you don't understand why this is true, I can *prove* it to you with a switching box which you can operate yourself, if you want. I'll build you one and send it to you for free - it can be done, safely if the box is built to a proper standard. I have made this offer to several people who don't want to believe it in the past, but curiously no-one has ever taken me up on it. Why?

I can do the same for speaker cables too if you want. And no, there is no risk to the speakers.

Or you can do some proper blind testing. All you need is an honest volunteer to swap things without telling you which is in use. It's *not* hard. Why not actually prove you can hear the difference, if you're so sure you can?

chrispy108

Rocker said:

The real question is what is the purpose of a hi-fi cable or indeed a hi-fi system?  IMHO it is to replay music.  And what is music? Again IMHO music is sound, not just any sound but sound with rhythm, tempo and emotion.  Nobody would call the sound of a jack hammer as music but a couple of 'average' musicians in a pub can play a tune which connects with the people there.  They are moved by the sound.  That is music IMHO.

A lot of recorded music has that emotional quality recorded as well as the sound of the notes.  If the cable allows more of that emotional feeling 'through' then that is a good cable.

What a load of absolute nonsense! 

A CD is two sets of 0s and 1s which are decoded into a pair of analog signals. That is it. You can certainly romanticise the recording process, but CD playback involves no "emotion". A cable doesn't let "emotion" through, it transfers the signal from one box to another, that's it.

There are well understood scientific reasons why a jackhammer is an unpleasant sound and a well played guitar is a nice sound (frequencies & harmonics).

Rocker said:

Someone pointed out a 'flaw' in the cable advert alluded to by Fretmeister.  The mains cable was claimed to make the sound louder or words to that effect.  I don't know about that but in my system, the better cables lower the noise floor and thus increase the perceived dynamic range.  Quiet instruments and voices are quieter thus the loud voices and sounds appear louder.  That is what I think is happening but I am open to correction on this notion.  But it definitely holds up in my music room.

That would have been me, you have could scrolled up to take a look.

@ICBM neatly expands a point I raised about power cables, there are power cables all the way from the power station through to the ones inside the unit. So unlike with hifi interconnects were you're changing the whole thing, power cables is clearly nonsense.

Until you're prepared to do a double-blind test, I don't believe the effects you are experienced are due to anything other than your brain wanting the better cable to be better. Again, this effect is well understood by science.

If these power cables were genuinely transferring electricity better, do you not think we'd use them for other things? Why not plug your kettle in with one? Or your oven? It'll be more efficient, so you'll save money!

ThePrettyDamned

If these cables are that good, why are infrared spectroscopy, MRI, CT scanners etc not rigged up with silver wire?

Proton NMR (or any form of NMR or MRI) is quite delicate. Yet they're rigged in (okay, a kettle lead wouldn't quite do the job here) with... Pretty standard cables. Thick, heavy duty ones that are capable of supplying the required amount of electricity safely. I don't know the tech specs, but it looks crude - just big cables. In fairness, it has to support a superconductor and associated gubbins...

Smaller spectroscopy machines are also pretty sensitive - I spent quite a lot of time working with UV/VIS and infrared spec and these are plugged into the wall with pretty standard cables, yet achieve remarkably good signal to noise ratio. Why? There is clever stuff inside that helps reduce noise. I assume hi fis are the same.

I hope they are, God knows my house is full of stuff to add noise. My bandit is pretty good at picking it up, sadly... As is every other guitar amp I've owned

Dave_Mc

^ i never actually looked at the cables. i was trying to stave off death through boredom.

Rocker

If there is one feature that is common to most internet forums, it is the existence of people who are, not to put too fine a point on it, "absolutists".  Usually combined with a large dose of "certainty".  These people seem to believe that everything must be "proved" before it can exist.  And the continued insistence of such vague notions as "double blind tests" etc.  I find that attitude quite amusing.  I am not asking or suggesting that you spend your money on anything.  I am freely offering my experience and acquired knowledge in music replay, with the smallest chance that something I wrote might be of benefit to you when you sit down to listen to a piece of music.

I am not selling any product so I have no ulterior motive in passing on my experiences.  If you do decide to try out some of my suggestions, great, let me know of your experiences.  By PM if you like.  If not, then why not ignore my texts.  I have not a laboratory of standard measuring equipment, neither am I going to subject what is expensive kit to risk of  damage due to pulses or bangs to check if a cable is doing what I think it is.

So take it easy guys.  Listen and you will hear.  It is not a crime to be content with mediocrity.  I am quite happy with getting the best out of what I have.  I just wish it was as easy to improve my guitar playing.

chrispy108

Yes, @Rocker, a feature of most internet forums (infact most educated people in 2014) is that they accept science and evidence.

As you refuse to, perhaps you should stop using things which have required science to build? As you don't believe in them? Sell your car, computer and modern conveniences and move into a cave with some fire.

As you constantly refuse to run any proper tests on any of your equipment, then you haven't "acquired knowledge in music replay", you've just spent some money and smiled at it.

I'm not "content with mediocrity", you're content with being ripped off by snake-oil merchants.

ThePrettyDamned

Rocker;237932" said:

the continued insistence of such vague notions as "double blind tests" etc.  I find that attitude quite amusing.

I don't see what is so vague in that notion. @icbm has offered to give you a means of testing a decent quality, adequate kettle lead against a very very expensive kettle lead, free of charge. A double blind test is not vague. It's very specific - and ultimately offers conclusive proof, even if only at a personal level.

Anyway, how's the bass playing going? I've spent a long time playing bass recently, and I've not had terrible issues with noise. Brand new strings do get a bit noisy, but after a few weeks of playing they do get a bit smoother and quieter

Also, practice guitar with an od pedal, distortion channel an gain maxed. You'll soon find your muting is decent

UnclePsychosis

Rocker said:

And the continued insistence of such vague notions as "double blind tests" etc.  I

You actually don't know anything at all about science, do you? 

Double blind testing? "a vague notion"? I've heard it all now... ) ) )

Dave_Mc

Rocker said:

If there is one feature that is common to most internet forums, it is the existence of people who are, not to put too fine a point on it, "absolutists".  Usually combined with a large dose of "certainty".  These people seem to believe that everything must be "proved" before it can exist.  And the continued insistence of such vague notions as "double blind tests" etc.  I find that attitude quite amusing.  I am not asking or suggesting that you spend your money on anything.  I am freely offering my experience and acquired knowledge in music replay, with the smallest chance that something I wrote might be of benefit to you when you sit down to listen to a piece of music.

I am not selling any product so I have no ulterior motive in passing on my experiences.  If you do decide to try out some of my suggestions, great, let me know of your experiences.  By PM if you like.  If not, then why not ignore my texts.  I have not a laboratory of standard measuring equipment, neither am I going to subject what is expensive kit to risk of  damage due to pulses or bangs to check if a cable is doing what I think it is.

So take it easy guys.  Listen and you will hear.  It is not a crime to be content with mediocrity.  I am quite happy with getting the best out of what I have.  I just wish it was as easy to improve my guitar playing.

How exactly would doing the blind test (actually a double blind would be better) prevent you from hearing what's there, if it is genuinely there?

Paul_C

playing bass is more fun than arguing about something online

fretmeister

Paul_C said:

playing bass is more fun than arguing about something online

To be fair, that depends on the tune.

I have to learn the bass parts for a couple of tunes from "Frozen" for offspring's orchestra.

Paul_C

and?

there's joy to be found in the simplest of tasks, and even the worst of tunes, if you look hard enough

I'm watching Fargo and playing bass right now.

fretmeister

Paul_C said:

and?

there's joy to be found in the simplest of tasks, and even the worst of tunes, if you look hard enough

I'm watching Fargo and playing bass right now.

Oh no - you misunderstand me.

Playing tunes from Frozen is infinitely more enjoyable than Rocker's delusions.

I still haven't seen Fargo. I must give it a go at some point.

Paul_C

I watched the first ep. on 4OD last night and I quite liked it, Billy Bob is particularly good.

In other, bass-related news, I've fitted a new bridge to my no. 1 bass to bring the strings a little closer together (I cut a new nut the other day to do the same at that end) - quite pleased with the results

RocknRollDave

Rocker said:

 These people seem to believe that everything must be "proved" before it can exist.

Well, hey, let's all just believe whatever we fancy then without putting it to the test...is that what you would prefer?!