Patches for Helix - how do you all find dialling them in?

imalrightjack

First, I don't have the knowledge to dial in patches well.  Or pedals.  Every valve amp I have owned has been 12 o'clock all the way, with minor tweaks.  It usually sounded good with a handful of pedals, at least to my ears (and certainly recall plenty of compliments).  But Helix isn't so simple.

I don't have the time to develop the knowledge required to be a Jason Sadites, who gets every aspect of how to make a digital amp sound like a real one.  I read so much stuff about, "Just make this lo cut, or high cut or put the compressor on X setting," but there are so many accompanying things that I simply feel overwhelmed.  And I don't really understand why most things are recommended.  

Yes, I know I'm whining and lazy but what has your experience been?  And does anybody have any great patches to share?  Have you found any really good ones which you have found usable?

I guess, mostly, I just want to play and enjoy my sound and don't feel like I am quite there.

digitalscream

I find it pretty trivial - I just treat it as though it's a traditional rig. At least, that's what I do when I'm playing through my SD Powerstage 170 and guitar cab.

It's a bit more complex when making a patch with cab emulation included - at which point, I ignore the built-in cabs and use IRs instead. I spent a long time finding the IRs which work best for me (my favourites are the blends in the free Ownhammer Mesa V30 pack), and now I just slap those on top. If I need more than one distinct tone, I tend to use different blends at different distances to differentiate the guitars, but keep the same overall flavour.

If you gave me a blank Helix with those IRs loaded, I could probably set up a patch with all my snapshots in about 10 minutes; it's a case of having a clear idea of what you want to hear, too.

PolarityMan

I find the delays pretty fiddly to dial in tbh

NPP

speaking of delay: I'm still waiting for my Stomp to arrive but have watched a few of the dialling in videos to prepare myself. Most seems pretty straightforward and logical but I don't understand the massive amounts of delay and gain people drown their lead sounds in - I wonder how you can even play like that. I usually like the rhythm / clean / crunch stuff they are dialling in.

professorben

Takes about 5 mins. 

Pick an amp you like,pick a cab, if you are not sure use the Amp/Cab block where the cab is picked for you. 

Play guitar....

you now have a guitar sound that will sound work. 

Yes you can can go down the rabbit hole, but if you are adjusting things you don’t understand it’s highly likely you won’t really hear much of what you need to do.

All that Jason Sadites shelving eq business is all well and good, but it’s fine tuning. 

My advice is get some Ownhamner or Sigma IR’s (some are free, there’s a free pack on the Line6 website too) as that takes it to a new level, you can get the same results with the stock cabs, but it takes some tweaking, IR’s just work right away. 

The thing ive found is that all this adjusting eq, and tweaking is for guys going direct. 

If you  plug into a power amp or fx return of an amp and play through a real guitar cabinet, then you don’t need any of that. 

I play my helix into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 into a 4x12 and I don’t use any eq or tricks, just the Friedman amp model, with a few pedals, and it sounds awesome. 

professorben

NPP said:

speaking of delay: I'm still waiting for my Stomp to arrive but have watched a few of the dialling in videos to prepare myself. Most seems pretty straightforward and logical but I don't understand the massive amounts of delay and gain people drown their lead sounds in - I wonder how you can even play like that. I usually like the rhythm / clean / crunch stuff they are dialling in.

Agreed, as amazing as they sound I think it’s very much for ‘demo’ purposes. 

I cant say I go much above 20% mix on any delay I’ve used. 

professorben

PolarityMan said:

I find the delays pretty fiddly to dial in tbh

Which ones are you using, what are you going for? 

kennedydream1980

professorben said:

Takes about 5 mins. 

Pick an amp you like,pick a cab, if you are not sure use the Amp/Cab block where the cab is picked for you. 

Play guitar....

you now have a guitar sound that will sound work. 

Yes you can can go down the rabbit hole, but if you are adjusting things you don’t understand it’s highly likely you won’t really hear much of what you need to do.

All that Jason Sadites shelving eq business is all well and good, but it’s fine tuning. 

My advice is get some Ownhamner or Sigma IR’s (some are free, there’s a free pack on the Line6 website too) as that takes it to a new level, you can get the same results with the stock cabs, but it takes some tweaking, IR’s just work right away. 

The thing ive found is that all this adjusting eq, and tweaking is for guys going direct. 

If you  plug into a power amp or fx return of an amp and play through a real guitar cabinet, then you don’t need any of that. 

I play my helix into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 into a 4x12 and I don’t use any eq or tricks, just the Friedman amp model, with a few pedals, and it sounds awesome. 

Spot on with this. I think if you run direct it does add a few more complications. High/Low cuts on the cab block are essential, or approaching it like Jason Sadites does with his shelving eq also works really well. 

The singer in my band recently bought a Helix. He didn't tell me he had bought it and just turned up with it at the gig as a 'surprise'.

He got it because he has heard my Helix LT over the past year and decided he wanted one. However he doesn't have a clue how the thing works, he's very much a valve amp + pedal player.

So he presents his new toy to me asking me to dial it in for him. This is just before soundcheck so I didn't have much time at all.

I just used the stock JCM800mod amp settings for dirt and the stock Fender twin amp settings for cleans. I used the stock greenback cab with the stock settings, I just set the low cut to 100hz and the high cut to 5k.
Then I just got the volumes balanced between clean and dirty.
I set him up a basic delay, chorus, ts808 for a gain boost and a volume boost for solos.
I setup the  bottom row of switches for Snapshots (Clean, Crunch, Heavy Crunch, Lead) and top row to switch in the effects. All in it took me about 10 minutes to do. 

I stood out front while he played with the band during the soundcheck and it sounded excellent. In fact a few people that were there during the soundcheck were asking me what amp and pedals he was using!! 

He has stuck with these same sounds for the past 2 months and is very happy.


  

kennedydream1980

professorben said:

NPP said:

speaking of delay: I'm still waiting for my Stomp to arrive but have watched a few of the dialling in videos to prepare myself. Most seems pretty straightforward and logical but I don't understand the massive amounts of delay and gain people drown their lead sounds in - I wonder how you can even play like that. I usually like the rhythm / clean / crunch stuff they are dialling in.

Agreed, as amazing as they sound I think it’s very much for ‘demo’ purposes. 

I cant say I go much above 20% mix on any delay I’ve used. 

With regards delays I find they tend to work better in parallel. They don't muddy the tone as much and stay out of the way of the dry signal. In parallel I run the mix around 30-35% which works really well.

vasselmeyer

kennedydream1980 said:

Spot on with this. I think if you run direct it does add a few more complications. High/Low cuts on the cab block are essential, or approaching it like Jason Sadites does with his shelving eq also works really well.
  

I only use my modeler for playing live, never recording. I take a line out to my amp's FX return and that sound has no cab modelling and that's what I hear on stage for myself. However, I also take an XLR to the desk for the FoH sound and that sound does have cab modelling.

I keep hearing this phrase hi/low cut and I'm assuming it's just an EQ block. I wonder if someone can post an example of what that looks like in terms of frequencies? I'm quite happy with my FoH sound but I'd like to create an EQ block and switch it in and out, just to hear what it sounds like.

kennedydream1980

vasselmeyer said:

kennedydream1980 said:

Spot on with this. I think if you run direct it does add a few more complications. High/Low cuts on the cab block are essential, or approaching it like Jason Sadites does with his shelving eq also works really well.
  

I only use my modeler for playing live, never recording. I take a line out to my amp's FX return and that sound has no cab modelling and that's what I hear on stage for myself. However, I also take an XLR to the desk for the FoH sound and that sound does have cab modelling.

I keep hearing this phrase hi/low cut and I'm assuming it's just an EQ block. I wonder if someone can post an example of what that looks like in terms of frequencies? I'm quite happy with my FoH sound but I'd like to create an EQ block and switch it in and out, just to hear what it sounds like.

There are High/Low cut parameters in the cab block so you can use those if you wish. Or there is a High/Low cut EQ in the options for the EQ block which you can place directly after the cab block. The cab block cuts seem to be more subtle than the EQ block so experiment with both to see which you prefer.

You really need to be playing up at gig volume to hear how effective these cuts can be, this is due to the Fletcher Munson Curve. Basically as the guitar sound gets louder the high and low frequencies will perceivably get louder in relation to the mids, which stay relatively the same. This is due to how the human ear picks up frequencies. 

Musicwolf

I gigged my Helix for the first time on Saturday (having previously gigged with a Kemper and, before that, an HD500).  One feed to a TS210 on stage (mainly for the benefit of my band mates as I'm using in ears), one direct to PA.  I'd had the Helix for 8 days and had one rehearsal.  Everything went perfectly with the gig (well, my guitar sound was fine.  The singer / guitarist starting a song in the wrong key was nothing to do with the Helix).

The way I approached it:  Despite setting up with a patch-per-song the reality is that I have a few core sounds (as if playing through a conventional rig).  I used stock amps and cabs, the only IR I imported was for an acoustic sound.  I start with a blank canvas, not a pre-set.  I set up a basic chain OD>amp>cab>reverb chain and select my favourite amp.  I'll then play around getting a rhythm and lead sound from that rig adding an EQ and Delay (Delay in a parallel path).  I now know what parameters I need to change to go from one to the other.  You can change said parameters with a snapshot but I prefer to change with the expression pedal (toe up = rhythm / toe down = lead).  I do this for my basic clean, crunch and drive sounds then I copy the patches to each song and tweak the delay / add modulation effects as required.

PolarityMan

professorben said:

PolarityMan said:

I find the delays pretty fiddly to dial in tbh

Which ones are you using, what are you going for? 

I have a really specific sounds that's eluding me. It's a rhythmic delay set to 8ths where the delays are extremely clean and the first repeat is very nearly equal volume to the original note but the subsequent repeats decay fast enough that while 2-3 repeats are audible new notes are not swamped and there is no distortion introduced anywhere.

I kind of like to incorporate the delay as part of the actual part in a few places which is why the very speific requirements, so far my best results have been from ducked delay but it still isnt quite where I was with my old boss unit.

fretmeister

I have a basic layout that I tend to use for all patches, so I can have clean, crunch, filth, solo boost type thing, with options for some modulation.

If I want a new patch I often use the same layout and then just swap what is in the blocks. Different amp / different FX etc.
Then I know exactly what the snapshot routing is all the time.

Sometimes I ignore all of that and just put together a simple patch for some home noodling - often ends up as a single amp, touch of reverb and a drive / fuzz pedal and nothing else.

But everything has hi and low cuts on the cabs / IRs. They really are vital for a good sound.

Seziertisch

PolarityMan said:

professorben said:

PolarityMan said:

I find the delays pretty fiddly to dial in tbh

Which ones are you using, what are you going for? 

I have a really specific sounds that's eluding me. It's a rhythmic delay set to 8ths where the delays are extremely clean and the first repeat is very nearly equal volume to the original note but the subsequent repeats decay fast enough that while 2-3 repeats are audible new notes are not swamped and there is no distortion introduced anywhere.

I kind of like to incorporate the delay as part of the actual part in a few places which is why the very speific requirements, so far my best results have been from ducked delay but it still isnt quite where I was with my old boss unit.

Use a combination of delays with some sort of split in the signal chain before recombining at the end. Set up a single repeat on the delay on one path and multiple on the other. Use volume blocks to adjust to taste. Though, of course, this is potentially easier to get right using a full-fat Helix

rossyamaha

It might be a bit of a trek for you but I'm in GuitarGuitar Glasgow next Tuesday evening doing a clinic. Happy to help you get to where you need. 

PolarityMan

Seziertisch said:

PolarityMan said:

professorben said:

PolarityMan said:

I find the delays pretty fiddly to dial in tbh

Which ones are you using, what are you going for? 

I have a really specific sounds that's eluding me. It's a rhythmic delay set to 8ths where the delays are extremely clean and the first repeat is very nearly equal volume to the original note but the subsequent repeats decay fast enough that while 2-3 repeats are audible new notes are not swamped and there is no distortion introduced anywhere.

I kind of like to incorporate the delay as part of the actual part in a few places which is why the very speific requirements, so far my best results have been from ducked delay but it still isnt quite where I was with my old boss unit.

Use a combination of delays with some sort of split in the signal chain before recombining at the end. Set up a single repeat on the delay on one path and multiple on the other. Use volume blocks to adjust to taste. Though, of course, this is potentially easier to get right using a full-fat Helix

Ive got a full fat helix, thats a good idea, ill have to give that a try.

PolarityMan

rossyamaha said:

It might be a bit of a trek for you but I'm in GuitarGuitar Glasgow next Tuesday evening doing a clinic. Happy to help you get to where you need. 

Other end of the country for me but appreciate the offer. I'm sure its def possible and I just keep tweaking.