Dog Training Help - advise

guitars4you

I have a 4 year old dog - part springer and part poodle - happy and frisky and generally a well behaved dog

Loves his walks and play time - Has always enjoyed playing in the water as and when

However in the last 2/3 weeks I've found he won't come out of the river water when asked - I normally give him some play in the river for 2/3 mins  - Splash and chase his ball or small sticks - Then we go back to the field for a run, warm up and dry - Now he has started to stay in the river - A couple of times he will still come out as before - But many times he just stays in the water - Approach him and he backs of - By the way the river is only 6-12" deep - He can swim if needs, but generally stays by the edge were very shallow

I've tried going back to him, to play a touch more, to hopefully distract, then try to ask him to come out of the water - No joy 

I've walked away a couple of times, into the field and he will eventually follow when I'm maybe 50 yards away and/or he has seen me kicking throwing his ball about - But if he gets his ball he just runs back to the river - If he doesn't get the ball, he stays just far enough away so I can't put his lead on him

In a different field, on a different walk with no river, he always comes back - In the house/garden well behaved

If he has come out ,as asked I make a big well done fuss of him - If he doesn't come out then I've not told him of

I can contact a dog trainer to just discuss this issue - But hoping some one may well have a good tip or two

I could take him for his 'favourite' walk by the river but keep him on is lead, but that doesn't seen right/fair

Tips welcome

axisus

You're the boss. He needs to know when you are displeased, you can't just rely on treats for good stuff. Once you have laid down the law a few times you rarely need to get tough on them.

Gassage

Mark, google click training. it works.

Snags

Keep doing the positive reinforcement stuff (which is essentially what click training formalises/ingrains).

At the end of the day coming to you needs to be more interesting/exciting/rewarding than staying in the water. Maybe get some mega-treats that he really loves and every time he comes to you from the water give him one. If he doesn't, no treat. Rinse and repeat many times.

If it's a behaviour change then it might also be worth trying to suss out why - is it just that the water is a more fun place to be, or is there something going on that he's not happy about/comfortable with? Might not even be in the locale - look up stuff on "dog stress bucket".

The "you're the boss" stuff is, frankly, damaging bollocks. Get him to choose to do the right thing because he wants to, not because he's shit scared.

underdog

As @Snags said you just need to make coming out of the water better than staying in it, the hard part is finding the food/treat that's worth it.

Also complete agree with him on the whole "you're the boss/pack leader balls too" the dog is your companion and friend, it should listen because it wants to, out of respect not fear.

joneve

What Snags said. 

Our dog (also a springer) can be a dick and not come to us when we ask (usually when she has stolen someone else's ball), because she . We just ignore her, walk away and she comes back when she realises it's not a game and we're not going to chase her. 

At this point you still reward them, so they know they've done the right thing. Eventually they get better. 

One thing to point out, is that you should never really stop training your dog. We've got lazy and thus Poppy sees how far she can push it. when we are consistently doing training with her (be it recall, trick training, game playing), she's much better all round. 

People make the mistake of going to puppy class, getting their dog to do the basics then jut assume they'll do it forever more. 

Also disagree with the pack leader mentality, for the record. 

axisus

Snags said:

The "you're the boss" stuff is, frankly, damaging bollocks. Get him to choose to do the right thing because he wants to, not because he's shit scared.

Who said anything about being shit scared? Dogs love being with people, but they still need boundaries, just like kids. 

Snags

axisus said:

Snags said:

The "you're the boss" stuff is, frankly, damaging bollocks. Get him to choose to do the right thing because he wants to, not because he's shit scared.

Who said anything about being shit scared? Dogs love being with people, but they still need boundaries, just like kids. 

Apologies if I misinterpreted you, but the phrasing seemed to imply the whole "alpha", "pack", "dominance" approach which generally speaking leads to dogs that respond out of fear/negative reinforcement rather than choice/positive reinforcement so tends to lead to less happy dogs and also dogs that only behave for one or two people.

Totally agree that they need boundaries, and that they should understand what "No" means. It's just a question of how they gain that understanding.

Mark1960

I have had Springers for many years, and the do need a firm hand because they are so exuberant. My tip would be to avoid the water for a couple of weeks, and do other fun things, then ocasionally go to the river with your dog on a very long rope lead, so you can lead him out if he doesn't want to come. it's worth pointing out as I'm sure you are probably aware, that springers love water, but they still need to understand who is walking who.

digitalscream

Dog psychology - everything that motivates them comes under the "fun" banner. Dinner? Fun. Treats? Fun. Walks? Fun. Playing? Fun. Playing in the water? Fun, for some dogs.

The thing is, every dog assigns a value to each of these things - some things are more fun than others, and the trick to training is to get them to think that doing as you ask, or coming to your side, will result in stuff that's more fun than what they're doing....but not to repeat it so often that they get bored of it.

Since yours seems to love water, you might want to try getting a spray bottle that can do a single jet of water, and teach him to play at "catching" the water. When he won't come out of the river, spray a jet towards him so he can catch it, then another one slightly short (so he has to come towards you), then shorter etc. When he gets to you, loads of praise and a treat...and suddenly coming out of the river to play with you is actually more fun than staying in the river.

It'll obviously take some time to get there.

Alternatively...do what we do and use a long lunge line instead of a lead, and always use it instead of having him off the lead. They're fine for rivers, as long as you keep a loose hold and manage it so he doesn't get tangled.

I find it quite interesting that the "value" thing works with resources too, and handily disproves the whole "alpha" thing. Basically, in a multi-dog household each dog will favour some resources over others (food/water/toys/certain humans/etc) and between them they'll work out a pecking order which is different for each resource.

Veganic

All this stuff sounds great in theory but I don't think our dog has read the same books. 

digitalscream

Snags said:

Totally agree that they need boundaries, and that they should understand what "No" means. It's just a question of how they gain that understanding.

Exactly. It's not "showing them who's boss" - it's "giving them a positive reason to stop what they're doing when you say 'no', regardless of whether there's a treat at the other end".

Emp_Fab

Sausages.

Simon_M

Emp_Fab said:

Sausages.

This is the correct answer (when coupled with click training). We have successfully trained a very clever and active rescue dog who knew absolutely nothing when we got her with sausages and a clicker. For two vegetarians it has been a bit minging but those cocktail sausages work a treat. Even old dogs can learn new tricks when sausage is involved.

Snags

That's what she said