Wattage for gigging?

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AlexCAlexC Frets: 2396
Yes - I know valve amps are louder than solid state.
So, here’s the thing - I’ve never owned anything more than a 40w solid state amp. At present I have a 30w Peavey and I’ve gigged with it - it’s louder than drums. It fills a sizeable space with a couple of hundred punters. Never had any problems.
At some point in the future I want/need a new amp and I’m drawn to the Blackstar ID Core 40. But reading various well known shops spiel about it they talk about it as a ‘great practice amp.’ Eh? I rarely have my 30w above vol 2 for playing at home. Surely 40w is enough for most pub/club gigs?
Any thoughts or direct experience with the Blackstar?
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Comments

  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 9552
    No direct experience, but I'd worry that the Blackstar's two 6.5" speakers wouldn't move enough air or have enough 'thump' for gigging. My own inclination would be to look for something with a 12" speaker.
    I play guitar because I enjoy it rather than because I’m any good at it
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  • AlexCAlexC Frets: 2396
    HAL9000 said:
    No direct experience, but I'd worry that the Blackstar's two 6.5" speakers wouldn't move enough air or have enough 'thump' for gigging. My own inclination would be to look for something with a 12" speaker.
    That makes some sense. I’ve always used 12” speakers before. Never occurred to me. 
    Thanks. 
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1592

    Not a hope of doing even a small pub with an  ID Core 40. Yes, the internal amps might deliver 20W pch (never benched one) but the speakers are ~85 dBWmtr jobs, "hi fi" if you like. It is the software emulation that makes it sound "guitar amp like" (but not everyone agrees..sup! sup!)

    My son gigs cafes and bars in France with an acoustic and uses a 40. It gives him a useful boost and the sounds he wants but "they" don't want it loud.

    The ID 60 and 100 are a different kettle of fish. They actually have amplifiers FAR more powerful than the monikers suggest and speakers of high sensitivity.

    Now, Blackstar do not claim the amps will stand shoulder to shoulder with EVERY 60 or 100 W valve rig but they will give many a bloody good run for their money.

    Once again, the sound, i.e. "voicing" of the amps might or might not suit you so you must go and have a listen.

    Do you run a decent PA? If so an HT-5 micced up or DI'ed from the emulated output could be a very lightweight solution?

    Dave.

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  • AlexCAlexC Frets: 2396
    @ecc83 I was just reading up on the ID 60. No PA as not presently gigging. 
    I’m also drooling over YT reviews of the Orange CR120c!
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  • fretmeisterfretmeister Frets: 23968
    The HT20 Head is a cracking amp. Very loud with the right cab, and quite modestly priced compared to many others.
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  • Revolting1Revolting1 Frets: 295
    Ht 20 studio mk1 combo is great.on par with an early 70s marshall but much more flexible and can do quiet too. B)
    When logic and proportion
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1592
    The HT20 Head is a cracking amp. Very loud with the right cab, and quite modestly priced compared to many others.


    Hmm? Got one here. Yes, good amp and son liked it well enough* when he was here but, they are resolutely a 20 watt amp. Being effectively cathode biased they clip at just on 20W (mind you that is at 230V mains in  and most of us get 240ish so, 25 even 30 watts is very possible) .

    I think I have to agree with ICBM when he said the combo was all but ruined by the totally crap Rocket 50 speaker. I tried to defend the company's decision but upon reflection I agree with IC. A good 20 W valve amp is surely deserving of a good speaker because it is a power level that is so very useful. Loud enough it seems for biggish pubs against a drummer IF a good 100dB speaker is fitted. Small and light enough to lug and not vastly expensive. From a technical point of view the two EL34s each run at a very conservative 18 watts and as such should outlast a set of EL84 maybe three times over? You can also swap 'em mid gig because bias is not critical.

    *Ours runs into a 55Hz Greenback so, nice for son's jazz but won't take out any windows!

    Dave.

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  • SchnozzSchnozz Frets: 1926
    Does the new HT20 combo not have a celestion speaker? I loved my HT5R, but I couldn't tell you what the speaker was.
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  • Revolting1Revolting1 Frets: 295
    Sorry, the combo's got a rocket 50 celestion as standard, forgot to mention that I swapped  mine for an emminence. drives cabs well too.
    When logic and proportion
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    The ID Cores are intentionally designed to sound good at home, not gigs. Even the very biggest one - 150W, with 10" speakers - is voiced all wrong for a gigging amp in my opinion, even though it's quite loud. (But nowhere near as loud as you would think for 150W.) It has a very diffuse, dark tone that will just get buried by the drums, the bass amp and any standard guitar amp of more than about 20W valve or 50W solid state.

    The ID series is a totally different thing as Dave said - a real giggable amp that performs far better than you would expect for a solid-state amp of the rated power. When they say "as loud as valve", just for once it's not an exaggeration. I tested an ID60 in a rehearsal room alongside a 50W Marshall, both going through a 4x12", and although the Marshall still just had the edge for presence and dynamics, there was very little in it in terms of outright volume.

    A good rule of thumb is that you need about twice as much power for a solid-state amp to match the clean volume of a valve amp, and about four times as much to match the fully overdriven volume - in other words you will need about a 120W solid-state amp to match the volume of a cranked 30W valve amp, through similar speakers. This is not an exaggeration. Partly it's because an overdriven valve amp will actually put out up to twice the clean power, whereas most solid-state amps are designed to not overdrive the power stage (which sounds bad and tends to cause failure), although there are other factors as well which make valve amps perceptively louder even at the same measured power.

    You also can't tell how far up an amp is from the position of the controls - most valve amps reach full clean power and go into overdrive well before the control is full up, and sometimes below halfway - so your valve amp at '3' may be putting out more than half its maximum power already. Solid-state amps are generally designed more conservatively and with more headroom on the controls because there is no point in trying to drive the power amp too hard.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1592

    There is another reason why valve PA stages really are louder than similarly rated, even 2x rated transistors. Thermal compression. This is the effect of heating on the speaker voice coil, its DC resistance increases and so to maintain the same power into the coil you need more voltage.

    SState stages are inherently* voltage limited (although they have high current capability) . So a 50W tranny amp can put 20 volts into an 8 Ohm speaker but, that's all it writes. As TC kicks in it can give no more and ACTUAL power falls.

    Valves on the other hand have massive voltage headroom and can keep pumping current into the higher impedance. The net power may not be MORE than 50W but it will keep it up there. Even ignoring TC speakers have a seriously bent impedance curve! There is a big peak at resonance, generally around 70Hz and then the impedance steadily rises past the nominal say 8R past around 1kHz. Valve amps can cope with these peaks better than transistors.

    *One solution is the make the SState amp capable of the voltage of one 2 or 3 times nominal power. This has dangers however for both the amp and speaker and requires some smart design and rather aggressive load protection which has to be "music shaped".

    Dave.

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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 9552
    AlexC said:
    I’m also drooling over YT reviews of the Orange CR120c!

    Have you considered the Boss Katana?

    I've got the Orange CR60C (the CR120Cs weaker sibling) and it's a very capable piece of kit. However, since buying a Katana 50, the Orange doesn't often get a look in. The Katana is properly loud and will easily keep up with a tame drummer at the 25W setting. Never used it against a neanderthal tub thumper, but suspect that the 50W setting would do it in most small gigs. Also, the 0.5W setting is great for home practice.
    I play guitar because I enjoy it rather than because I’m any good at it
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  • JayGeeJayGee Frets: 1254
    HAL9000 said:
    AlexC said:
    I’m also drooling over YT reviews of the Orange CR120c!

    Have you considered the Boss Katana?

    I've got the Orange CR60C (the CR120Cs weaker sibling) and it's a very capable piece of kit. However, since buying a Katana 50, the Orange doesn't often get a look in. The Katana is properly loud and will easily keep up with a tame drummer at the 25W setting. Never used it against a neanderthal tub thumper, but suspect that the 50W setting would do it in most small gigs. Also, the 0.5W setting is great for home practice.
    +1 for the Katana. I bought mine as a “one box” alternative to a Blackstar Series One head, 2x12” cab, and substantial pedalboard for rehearsals and gigs where space and/or time was tight and it works exceptionally well in that role, being unquestionably both good enough and loud enough for serious gigs.

    Lately it’s been doing service as house amp for a jam night which means I’ve got to hear it from out front and I’ve been even more impressed...
    Don't ask me, I just play the damned thing...
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 11680
    HAL9000 said:
    AlexC said:
    I’m also drooling over YT reviews of the Orange CR120c!

    Have you considered the Boss Katana?

    I've got the Orange CR60C (the CR120Cs weaker sibling) and it's a very capable piece of kit. However, since buying a Katana 50, the Orange doesn't often get a look in. The Katana is properly loud and will easily keep up with a tame drummer at the 25W setting. Never used it against a neanderthal tub thumper, but suspect that the 50W setting would do it in most small gigs. Also, the 0.5W setting is great for home practice.
    Beat me to it ;)
    We have to be so very careful, what we believe in...
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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 3634
    What is your budget?
    Why style of music do you play?
    Are there any limitations re size or weight etc?

    Of the amps mentioned I have a Blackstar ID60 which I use as a backup or if I'm jamming with a new band (I gig with a Helix but the Blackstar is quicker to set up).  I've owned the Blackstar HT40 in the past and I've worked with other guitarists who've used the mki and mkii HT20's.  For pub bands playing at sensible volumes, un mic'd drummer, all have had sufficient vol for my needs.  The ID60 is ok for the price, and it's nice and light, but it can't hold a candle to the HT20 mkii for tone however the HT costs about 50% more from memory and doesn't have the onboard effects - you get what you pay for.  Double the budget again and you'll get something even better, re-mortgage your house and maybe you'll find a Dumble for sale - hence the question about budget.

    Similar vein, the Blackstar's all use a Celestion 70/80 speaker if I'm not mistaken.  It's not the greatest but to put something better in would have pushed the amps into a higher price bracket.
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1592

    One thing Blackstar have NOT done (and I understand why, huge commercial gamble) is put all the versatility of the digital amps in a box with a valve output stage (and maybe valve PI?) .

    30-40W from Octals seems to be a good compromise re ass kick to luggabliity?

    Of course the purist cork sniffers are going to scream "HYBRID! HYBRID!" I would rather say "best of both worlds and a foot in both camps"?

    Dave.

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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    @AlexC ;
     What's up with the Peavey 30 watt amp ? if it's something like a classic 30 then that and a few pedals is a good giging rig

    There's so many factors involved when talking about how many watts you need such as ?

    ol Skool giging ..... non mic'ed turn up amp loud enough for amp alone to fill venue .....generally any valve amp 30 watts up be fine. Very simple and quick to set up but if you gig a lot on this format your probably damage your ears. 

    Modern way to gig .... literally any amp of any power, mic'ed up or emuated output into PA, foldback via IEM's. I did hundreds of gigs on Blackstars little HT5 like this.  A tip for any HT5 owner, put a boost in the effects loop to raise the level and use something a large 1 x 12" cab with a sensitive Celestion speaker. It makes that amp a totally different animal 

    Is it country music or death metal ? some of the bands I've worked with wouldn't use anything less than 100 watt valve amps. Other bands play so quiet they don't need anything like that power
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1592

    You have reminded me Danny! The HT-20 benefits greatly I am told by a boost in the FX loop and if you use a G-7 pedal and put the boost at 6dB or so at 2-3kHz so much the better.

    Dave.

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  • SchnozzSchnozz Frets: 1926
    I need a new amp, but I was told the ht20 MK2 beats the boss katana. I don't hear a lot about the helix and line6 powercab setup...Thought that would be popular.
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  • SchnozzSchnozz Frets: 1926
    Did anyone hear anymore on the Nextone too? That seemed to just fall flat.
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