What alternatives to a metronome ??? .

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  • CacofonixCacofonix Frets: 356
    Cacofonix said:


     a "Rhythm Pattern Dictionary"
    And all this time I never knew such a thing existed.  Where would I obtain one of these things?  It is the single thing stopping me from moving forward in a number of directions.
    Opened a few cardboard boxes in what is to be "the studio", found these:

    • "Rhythmical Grooves & Patterns for Drum-Computer Rhythmic Composer Acoustic and Electronic Drums and Percussion" by Siegfried Hoffmann Pub. 1988 Voggenreiter, Bonn ISBN 3-8024-0174-3
    • "Roland Drum Machine Rhythm Dictionary" by Sandy Felstein Pub. 1987 Alfred Publishing Co, Calif. ISBN unknown (shame 'cos its a very helpful book)
    Thank you.  I will look out for these. 

    ISBN Located:

    • ISBN-10: 0739027263
    • ISBN-13: 978-0739027264

    Only £50 from Amazon.


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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    £50!  :-O
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    tFB Trader
    Same as @steamabacus I've just bought a Solo XT, from exocet on here. It has a basic beat that you can turn on/off any time, and takes an SD card - I'm currently collecting a few backing tracks to go on that. Could also home-brew some, if I had more of a clue how to use my freebie Ableton...
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  • kelvinburnkelvinburn Frets: 156
    Roland MC303 groovebox. Drum machine, sequencer and all round box of noisemaking joy. Generally found on evil bay for <£100
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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1133
    edited May 2014
    Another Roland to check out - great, straight onto Google with that then.

    Yes Phil that's about the face I puled when I got to the £50 bit - rip and off came to mind at that point (at least I think the word was rip). (maybe worth scanning it though, just for a select few, non ?)

    @steamabacus I am intrigued about your statement "I think one of the best devices for honing your timing is a looper pedal".
    I don't want this thread to get into loopers per se, I haven't used one so I don't have a valid perspective on them, but from the metronome and timing point of view what is your experience ?

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  • steamabacussteamabacus Frets: 1258
    edited May 2014
    @steamabacus I am intrigued about your statement "I think one of the best devices for honing your timing is a looper pedal".
    I don't want this thread to get into loopers per se, I haven't used one so I don't have a valid perspective on them, but from the metronome and timing point of view what is your experience ?
    I'll try and keep this succinct (it's a huge subject)

    First of all, I have to say that I don't think there's any real substitute for working with a metronome (or a click of some kind) - the unforgiving nature is very revealing of all your flaws and rhythmic quirks - and, although I rarely use my metronome now, I did spend many hours practice with that infuriating click click click back-in-the -day.

    Developing a good sense of rhythm is about internalising a strong sense of metronomic pulse. Our perception of time subjectively changes due to various factors (adrenaline, mood, frustration, etc.) - we need some kind of objective external reference in order to become aware of this, either a mechanical (or, nowadays, electronic) device or by, for example, playing along with a more experienced teacher - we have a natural facility to entrain rhythmically with others. This is how traditional african drumming rhythms are taught.

    But, and this is especially true with guitarists I feel, it's easy to slip into a mode of playing where you are just tagging along with a strongly expressed rhythm (the drummer - this is why they have to learn to play in time. Sadly, they rarely do!). Developing good timing (and, by extension, good phrasing) requires you to develop a feel for where the pulse is and also where the notes you play lie in relation to that pulse. It's not actually desirable to play absolutely metronomically - that just sounds like a machine - but it is desirable to have a strong sense of that metronomic pulse and, importantly, share and communicate that sense of metronomic pulse with the other musicians you're playing with. In other words, the beat becomes something collectively established by the group rather than something established by the player with the biggest, loudest, most percussively dominant instrument (yes, drummers, that's you) and slavishly followed (or chased) by everybody else.

    So, metronomes and loopers.
    With a metronome, it's still incumbent upon the player to develop an awareness of where, relative to the pulse, you are pushing and pulling the beat. Not to simply 'tag along' unconsciously but to become consciously aware of where the pulse is (the click of the metronome) and where the note is (that you're playing on the guitar). That takes a certain amount of objectivity that can be at odds with the immersive subjectivity that often accompanies playing the guitar. Maybe this has something to do with why playing to a metronome can be so annoying?

    Playing with a looper (and also with a rhythmic delay, á la Steve Hillage) gives you an immediate feedback of your timing. It's a really common experience when learning to use a looper that the looper switching is malfunctioning in some way - that there's some kind of latency or error in the switching. (I've just started a new ambient project with three synchronised loopers. Both of the other guys are new to looping - both have problems timing the loop accurately, both have experienced the 'but I'm sure I got it right that time' moment over and over again). It is very common to discover that where we think we are playing a note (or operating a pedal switch) and where we actually are playing that note, are not the same. Loopers are utterly unforgiving in this.

    Another advantage with loopers is that it can give you immediate feedback on your phrasing timing. As you overlay layers on a loop, if your timing is poor your funky groove will quickly turn into a leaden plod. As that man Steve Hillage once pointed out, groove is all a matter of micro-timings ahead of or behind the beat. It is very difficult to address these factors analytically - using a looper allows you to develop a feel for how to play one part relative to another in order to establish a groove.

    It soon becomes apparent that a killer groove is not about everybody playing everything at exactly the same time, bang on some metronomically accurate rhythm. It's about everybody playing in and around the beat, subtly pushing and pulling while, at the same time, sharing and communicating a sense of that metronomically accurate pulse between themselves.

    Or so I reckon. I should shut up now, I think.
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  • I agree with you man.

    It really helps me to start with a metronome, then... Er... Headbang in time.

    Rock and roll, baby.

    Seriously, it is helping massively.  However, there is no substitue for a drummer or a metronome.  I'm just trying to become less dependant. 
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  • 57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
    I prefer the direct approach when drumming it in to my students...




    <Vintage BOSS Upgrades>
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  • 57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
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    <Vintage BOSS Upgrades>
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  • steamabacussteamabacus Frets: 1258
    edited May 2014
    I agree with you man.

    It really helps me to start with a metronome, then... Er... Headbang in time.

    There's actually a lot of wisdom in this. So many players stand stock still when performing but it's all the foot tapping, nodding, head banging ... Shadows' dance steps if you must .... that help comminicate that shared sense of pulse amongst the group.
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  • midlifecrisismidlifecrisis Frets: 2341
    recently started practising with a looper, shocked to realize how bad my timing really was. its taught me to listen carefully to the timings. no doubt a metronome would work too. the sooner the better to not get into bad habits---im struggling to get out of mine
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    Play along with records! Worked for everyone else over last 50-60 years !
    Failing that the SR16 is the best drum machine there is for practice and live work.
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  • hubobuloushubobulous Frets: 2352
    I know you don't want to think about DAWs, but using Reaper and Steven Slate Drums 4 isn't hard, or too pricey and it opens up a new world of possibilities. It adds more interest to practicing for me, let alone being an easy step towards recording your own stuff.

    Yes, DAWs can be intimidating and complex, but if you're just looking to start, adding a drum groove onto a track is very simple.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    Play along with records! Worked for everyone else over last 50-60 years !
    Failing that the SR16 is the best drum machine there is for practice and live work.
    Timing on lots of records is pretty shocking though. I guess the predominance of recording to a click now might make modern records more reliable in certain genre's but I don't think its a substitute for metronome practice.
    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • randomhandclapsrandomhandclaps Frets: 20521
    For really slow tunes an egg timer can be surprisingly effective.
    My muse is not a horse and art is not a race.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 9794
    Play along with records! Worked for everyone else over last 50-60 years !
    Failing that the SR16 is the best drum machine there is for practice and live work.
    Timing on lots of records is pretty shocking though. I guess the predominance of recording to a click now might make modern records more reliable in certain genre's but I don't think its a substitute for metronome practice.
    You're right its no substitute for metronome practice, but brilliant for teaching you to lock in with a real band, which is where it's at for playing live
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • I know you don't want to think about DAWs, but using Reaper and Steven Slate Drums 4 isn't hard, or too pricey and it opens up a new world of possibilities. It adds more interest to practicing for me, let alone being an easy step towards recording your own stuff.

    Yes, DAWs can be intimidating and complex, but if you're just looking to start, adding a drum groove onto a track is very simple.
    How easy is it to program your own grooves?  I've looked and it has its own ones, but they are usually not much cop for recording...
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 4125
    Play along with records! Worked for everyone else over last 50-60 years !
    Failing that the SR16 is the best drum machine there is for practice and live work.
    Timing on lots of records is pretty shocking though. I guess the predominance of recording to a click now might make modern records more reliable in certain genre's but I don't think its a substitute for metronome practice.

    Timing of a whole band is about feel, sometimes it slows up a bit sometimes it speeds up a bit, is that a crime? Well apart from Hendrix ;)
    The point is that I would make is, you have to learn how to play in time with another person, who generally is not a metronome!
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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    words of wisdom there... in the days before LPs musicians used to play along to the radio and might only ever get one crack at a tune.


    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    edited May 2014
    octatonic;238147" said:
    Some mates.

    it's certainly cheaper to get a 10 pack (one for each finger) than buy a set of elixirs ;)

    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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