Tuning Aaarrrrggghhh!!!!

Adam_MD

Does anyone else have days where the simple act of tuning a guitar is frickin impossible?
I've been really busy with work recently and finally got a bit of time to sit and play for a few hours. Well 35 mins, 2 different guitars later and I've given up in disgust. Didn't matter what I did tonight the bastards were both 'just' out of tune. Enough to put me off playing for the night. I never have problems tuning my prs but tonight it just wasn't happening. I used a tuner and then did it by ear (both of which are normally fine). Not sure what the hell was wrong with me tonight but no matter what I did both of them sounded the tiniest bit off, enough to annoy me into giving up for today.

Alnico

Wow, I thought that was just me that did that !

Been there and gave up in the same disgust. I think some days my ears just want to play tricks on me despite what the tuner says.

Get pissed. It works for me. Then I don't give a fuck what I sound like.

jd0272

Nah not at home chaps. 

Generally about 30 seconds before we're about to launch into our first set in a rammed pub, yerp.

meltedbuzzbox

maybe a justifiable reason to buy something with a floyd rose?

They dont go out of tune (provided they are setup correctly)

jd0272

meltedbuzzbox said:

maybe a justifiable reason to buy something with a floyd rose?

They dont go out of tune (provided they are setup correctly)

Whaaaa..............

Not needed by me, if I can't bend to the note it ain't getting played. I'm a simple chap  

Adam_MD

meltedbuzzbox;238280" said:

maybe a justifiable reason to buy something with a floyd rose?

They dont go out of tune (provided they are setup correctly)

I don't really like floyds though my reasons are honestly aesthetic. I never really have a problem tuning guitars, tonight I think I was just being special. When I start to get annoyed at myself
it's better to just leave it and come back later when I'm in better form.

Phil_aka_Pip

Alnico said:

Wow, I thought that was just me that did that !

Been there and gave up in the same disgust. I think some days my ears just want to play tricks on me despite what the tuner says.

Get pissed. It works for me. Then I don't give a fuck what I sound like.

I'm with you there.

grungebob

Yes same thing this Sunday. Could not for the life of me get any guitar to sound in tune for the first 3 frets. At first thought it was dodgy new strings on my PRS then grabbed my jaguar and same thing there just this warble to the notes that sounded out especially on high E string. Grabbed my back up back up in the end and same thing so left the room in disgust. Hoping tonight its not the same.
Could be time to buy new strings or a guitar though , that's justifiable right

57Deluxe

I wrote an article on a workround for this in my Blog:

http://guitarorama.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/get-in-tune/

Samgb

I think everyone goes in for this crazy nonsense from time to time. The irony being that a lot of much loved players/classic records are massively and obviously out of tune. Even with themselves.

Ive got a Vintage V100 with Seymour Duncan 59s in that i love, but i can either have the E and the G or the D and the C chord in tune. But one pair or the other will be out. I dont have the technical ability or confidence to fix it beyond a bit of a faff around with a screwdriver on the bridge(i am the least handy man you will ever come across). Im learning to live with it...but even just mentioning it here is like Chinese Water Torture. I know im going to get it out later and fanny about with it to get it in tune. Bastard thing 

ICBM

Samgb said:

I think everyone goes in for this crazy nonsense from time to time. The irony being that a lot of much loved players/classic records are massively and obviously out of tune. Even with themselves.

Ive got a Vintage V100 with Seymour Duncan 59s in that i love, but i can either have the E and the G or the D and the C chord in tune. But one pair or the other will be out. I dont have the technical ability or confidence to fix it beyond a bit of a faff around with a screwdriver on the bridge(i am the least handy man you will ever come across). Im learning to live with it...but even just mentioning it here is like Chinese Water Torture. I know im going to get it out later and fanny about with it to get it in tune. Bastard thing 

It's the nut. It always is when the intonation is out in the low positions. Worth paying someone to fix it properly, if it's something you don't want to try yourself.

Alnico

ICBM said:

Samgb said:

I think everyone goes in for this crazy nonsense from time to time. The irony being that a lot of much loved players/classic records are massively and obviously out of tune. Even with themselves.

Ive got a Vintage V100 with Seymour Duncan 59s in that i love, but i can either have the E and the G or the D and the C chord in tune. But one pair or the other will be out. I dont have the technical ability or confidence to fix it beyond a bit of a faff around with a screwdriver on the bridge(i am the least handy man you will ever come across). Im learning to live with it...but even just mentioning it here is like Chinese Water Torture. I know im going to get it out later and fanny about with it to get it in tune. Bastard thing 

It's the nut. It always is when the intonation is out in the low positions. Worth paying someone to fix it properly, if it's something you don't want to try yourself.

This makes me happy.

I am very soon paying my tech to fit a bone nut in my Telecaster and I will mention this OCD tuning problem to him when he does it.

Happy Days. Thank you @ICBM

Andyjr1515

57Deluxe said:

I wrote an article on a workround for this in my Blog:

http://guitarorama.wordpress.com/2012/02/15/get-in-tune/

Great Article.  The other culprit I find is the bottom E.  I always tune it down a tad and it sounds fine.

I am told by a professional piano tuner that pianos are the same - the skilled ones slightly off-pitch by ear certain of the strings so that it 'sounds right'

Phil_aka_Pip

Andyjr1515 said:

I am told by a professional piano tuner that pianos are the same - the skilled ones slightly off-pitch by ear certain of the strings so that it 'sounds right'

This may be a reference to equal temperament tuning. A "perfect fifth" is always flat by a few beats (4 Hz?) compared to what it "should" sound like. IMO a major 3rd always sounds a bit sharp too.

JohnPerry

Nut Sauce always does the trick for me

Samgb

ICBM said:

Samgb said:

I think everyone goes in for this crazy nonsense from time to time. The irony being that a lot of much loved players/classic records are massively and obviously out of tune. Even with themselves.

Ive got a Vintage V100 with Seymour Duncan 59s in that i love, but i can either have the E and the G or the D and the C chord in tune. But one pair or the other will be out. I dont have the technical ability or confidence to fix it beyond a bit of a faff around with a screwdriver on the bridge(i am the least handy man you will ever come across). Im learning to live with it...but even just mentioning it here is like Chinese Water Torture. I know im going to get it out later and fanny about with it to get it in tune. Bastard thing 

It's the nut. It always is when the intonation is out in the low positions. Worth paying someone to fix it properly, if it's something you don't want to try yourself.

I dont have either the tools or talent to attempt that myself. Thanks for the tip though - i really should move my apathetic arse and do something about it. The nut is pretty cheap and plasticky in appearance and this was on my shortlist of possible cuplrits already.

ESBlonde

I have days when tuning frustrates me and I can't get into the groove. Another day it just sits beautifully with me and I don't want to put it down. If I were a more disciplined player those are the days I should try new things and learn more but I tend to just enjoy the moment these days, time being a precious thing and all that.

viz

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Andyjr1515 said:

I am told by a professional piano tuner that pianos are the same - the skilled ones slightly off-pitch by ear certain of the strings so that it 'sounds right'

This may be a reference to equal temperament tuning. A "perfect fifth" is always flat by a few beats (4 Hz?) compared to what it "should" sound like. IMO a major 3rd always sounds a bit sharp too.

Precisely.

All the natural harmonics are called "just" ratios, and they sound pure to our ear. The "overtone scale" is the scale you can make by getting all those harmonics on the low E string, lightly touching your finger at the 5th fret and progressively moving it to the nut. You should get a perfect sounding scale (upon which the Simpsons tune is based), with notes that are perfectly in tune, and perfectly harmonious.

All the intervals used in western music can be generated by such harmonics, and therefore can be described by simple fractions. For example a "perfect" perfect 5th is 3/2 the frequency of the tonic. And a natural major 3rd is 5/4 of the tonic. This is called JUST INTONATION or JUST TEMPERAMENT. But unfortunately, Just Temperament doesn't really work. If you tune a piano, trying always to stick to natural, just ratios, you run into a major problem. For example, if you start on C, go up a perfect 5th, down a perfect 4th, up a 5th, down a 4th and down a major 3rd, using 3/2 and 5/4 only, you don't end up where you started. You go C -> G -> D -> A -> E -> C, but the first C and the last C are out by an eightieth. (3/2 x 3/4 x 3/2 x 3/4 x 4/5 = 81/80). So if you do that cycle again and again, your C will get sharper and shaper.

So they invented EQUAL TEMPERAMENT. That is where the ratio of every consecutive semitone is the same. The 12 notes have to fit into an octave (a ratio of 2/1), so the ratio between each note is 2^(1/12). Called the 12th root of 2. Then all the notes fit in the scale, and you can play a piece in any key and it will sound the same, and approximately in tune. But it is a compromise, and apart from the octave itself, there are no natural intervals in the entire scale.

As each semitone interval has the same ratio (1:1.059), they can be expressed in "cents", and the distance between each semitone is defined as 100 cents. So a perfect 5th is 700 cents. But using "just temperament", the perfect 5th was 3/2 of the tonic, which works out as 702 cents. So when Beethoven and @Phil_aka_pip hear a 5th on the modern piano, they say - hey that 5th is slightly flat!

To calculate the equal temperamant cent values of another tuning system, you do: Log base 2 of the interval, multiplied by 1200. So Log2 (3/2) x 1200 = 702.

In order that a piano will work in any key, a piano tuner therefore has to DETUNE the 5ths to 700 cents instead of the Just 702 cents. So he or she finds the Just 5th (so it sounds perfectly pure), then he detunes it. He chooses a 5th because it's the easiest harmonic to hear properly, and because 700 is very close to 702. It's the closest difference between the Just Interval and the Equal Temperament interval. (well, the 4th is obviously also close - it's 498 instead of 500 - because the 4th and the 5th together make up the octave, which is 1200 cents). Anyway, therefore he makes a harmonically perfect 5th, then starts to detune the upper note, and only has to detune a tiny bit to hear the "beats" between the two notes. He then counts the beats per second till he gets the right number (it's 3 or 4 beats per second I think like Pip said); then he's got his first 5th. Then he goes down a 4th, up a 5th, down a 4th etc, till he's got the whole octave right, using the same process, flattening all the 5ths and sharpening all the 4ths a tad. Then he can do the rest of the octaves, always checking against the original 12 reference notes. He also checks the 3rds within triads as he goes, to make sure.

So, yes, as Pip says, the major 3rd in Equal Temparament is 400 Cents, and in Just Temperament, the natural major 3rd is 5/4, which is 386 Cents. So, yes, the major 3rds on a piano all sound slightly sharp.

I think part of the problem we suffer as guitarists and musicians in general, is that it's easier to play and sing, and hear music perfectly in tune according to natural harmonics, than it is to be very slightly out of tune by a perfectly calculated amount. Sometimes one's ear is OK with the tempered note values (the 100, 200, 300 cent values), but sometimes it hankers after the purer tones. To me, that's one of the main root causes of a "bad tuning day".

Samgb

viz said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Andyjr1515 said:

I am told by a professional piano tuner that pianos are the same - the skilled ones slightly off-pitch by ear certain of the strings so that it 'sounds right'

This may be a reference to equal temperament tuning. A "perfect fifth" is always flat by a few beats (4 Hz?) compared to what it "should" sound like. IMO a major 3rd always sounds a bit sharp too.

Precisely.

All the natural harmonics are called "just" ratios, and they sound pure to our ear. The "overtone scale" is the scale you can make by getting all those harmonics on the low E string, lightly touching your finger at the 5th fret and progressively moving it to the nut. You should get a perfect sounding scale (upon which the Simpsons tune is based), with notes that are perfectly in tune, and perfectly harmonious.

All the intervals used in western music can be generated by such harmonics, and therefore can be described by simple fractions. For example a "perfect" perfect 5th is 3/2 the frequency of the tonic. And a natural major 3rd is 5/4 of the tonic. This is called JUST INTONATION or JUST TEMPERAMENT. But unfortunately, Just Temperament doesn't really work. If you tune a piano, trying always to stick to natural, just ratios, you run into a major problem. For example, if you start on C, go up a perfect 5th, down a perfect 4th, up a 5th, down a 4th and down a major 3rd, using 3/2 and 5/4 only, you don't end up where you started. You go C -> G -> D -> A -> E -> C, but the first C and the last C are out by an eightieth. (3/2 x 3/4 x 3/2 x 3/4 x 4/5 = 81/80). So if you do that cycle again and again, your C will get sharper and shaper.

So they invented EQUAL TEMPERAMENT. That is where the ratio of every consecutive semitone is the same. The 12 notes have to fit into an octave (a ratio of 2/1), so the ratio between each note is 2^(1/12). Called the 12th root of 2. Then all the notes fit in the scale, and you can play a piece in any key and it will sound the same, and approximately in tune. But it is a compromise, and apart from the octave itself, there are no natural intervals in the entire scale.

As each semitone interval has the same ratio (1:1.059), they can be expressed in "cents", and the distance between each semitone is defined as 100 cents. So a perfect 5th is 700 cents. But using "just temperament", the perfect 5th was 3/2 of the tonic, which works out as 702 cents. So when Beethoven and @Phil_aka_pip hear a 5th on the modern piano, they say - hey that 5th is slightly flat!

To calculate the equal temperamant cent values of another tuning system, you do: Log base 2 of the interval, multiplied by 1200. So Log2 (3/2) x 1200 = 702.

In order that a piano will work in any key, a piano tuner therefore has to DETUNE the 5ths to 700 cents instead of the Just 702 cents. So he or she finds the Just 5th (so it sounds perfectly pure), then he detunes it. He chooses a 5th because it's the easiest harmonic to hear properly, and because 700 is very close to 702. It's the closest difference between the Just Interval and the Equal Temperament interval. (well, the 4th is obviously also close - it's 498 instead of 500 - because the 4th and the 5th together make up the octave, which is 1200 cents). Anyway, therefore he makes a harmonically perfect 5th, then starts to detune the upper note, and only has to detune a tiny bit to hear the "beats" between the two notes. He then counts the beats per second till he gets the right number (it's 3 or 4 beats per second I think like Pip said); then he's got his first 5th. Then he goes down a 4th, up a 5th, down a 4th etc, till he's got the whole octave right, using the same process, flattening all the 5ths and sharpening all the 4ths a tad. Then he can do the rest of the octaves, always checking against the original 12 reference notes. He also checks the 3rds within triads as he goes, to make sure.

So, yes, as Pip says, the major 3rd in Equal Temparament is 400 Cents, and in Just Temperament, the natural major 3rd is 5/4, which is 386 Cents. So, yes, the major 3rds on a piano all sound slightly sharp.

I think part of the problem we suffer as guitarists and musicians in general, is that it's easier to play and sing, and hear music perfectly in tune according to natural harmonics, than it is to be very slightly out of tune by a perfectly calculated amount. Sometimes one's ear is OK with the tempered note values (the 100, 200, 300 cent values), but sometimes it hankers after the purer tones. To me, that's one of the main root causes of a "bad tuning day".

I was with you until 'Precisely'. After that...

viz

Phil_aka_Pip

@Samgb He puts it far better than I could have, worth trying to get your head round it. It makes sense when it 'clicks', trust me