Getting to know chords and keys

xibxang

Hi all,

I've been a bedroom player for years and I've been playing covers for that same length of time. However, I've started to play around with writing my own stuff and I have a question. I'm hoping it's a simple one. Say, for instance, I'm playing with two chords: E major and A major. They 'fit' nice in my ear even though I have no idea what key they might fit in and - within that key - which other chords fit. Is there somewhere online (or an iOS app?) that would allow me to look up these two chords and find out what other chords are available in a given key? I hope I worded that clear enough.

Many thanks in advance.

viz

This doesn't quite answer your question because it's not an app! But some useful and common chord progressions include:

I - IV - V - I (eg E, A, B, E; or A, D, E, A; or G, C, D, G; or C, F, G, C; or D, G, A, D)

i - VI - VII - i; or i - VII - VI - VII - i (eg Em, C, D, Em (eg most of Iron Maiden); or Am, G, F, Am; or C#m, B, A, B, C#m (eg All along the watch tower)

i - VII - VI - V (eg Em, D, C, B; or Am, G, F, E (eg stray cats strut)

I - V - vi - IV - I (eg G, D, Em, C, G (eg Since you been gone); or E, B, C#m, A, E)

iv - VII - III - VI - iv - V - i (eg Dm, G, C, F, Dm, E, Am (eg Still got the blues)

 

xibxang

@viz First of all, many thanks for the reply.

Secondly (and using your first example), you mention "I - IV - V - I" Am I right in saying that these represent the notes in the scale? Excuse my ignorance. I'm an engineer by day and a very amateur guitarist by night. I'm only now at the stage in my life where I'm trying to get my head around music theory at the pace of a racing snail. 

JAYJO

Hi mate. There is a free e book on scales and arpeggios available from the theory section. It will have a section on the number/symbols etc. You may find some other stuff there useful.

close2u

You need to get a grip with the concept of harmonising the major scale.


Let us start with the Major Scale (Ionian Mode).  Using the key of G ... why not?

Major scale formulae:
T, T, H, T, T, T, H      or      1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,    or      I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii

In G:    

G        A        B        C        D        E        F#
1         2        3         4        5         6        7

if you cycle this you get ...  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc (imagine it rising in octaves up the neck)

In all Major keys there are seven 'fundamental' chords found by a process called Harmonising the Major Scale.  The seven basic chords (triads) are 3-note chords made up of 3 notes each at an interval of one third apart.

the I chord (root) is made up of 1, 3, 5 (G, B, D) = G Major
the ii chord is made up of 2, 4, 6 (A, C, E) = A minor
the iii chord is made up of 3, 5, 7 (B, D, F#) = B minor
the IV chord is made up of 4, 6, 1 (C, E, G) = C Major
the V chord is made up of 5, 7, 2 (D, F#, A) = D Major
the vi chord is made up of 6, 1, 3 (E, G, = E minor
the vii chord is made up of 7, 2, 4 (F#, A, C) = F# diminished

Note I, IV, V = Major
ii, iii, vi = minor
vii = diminished

All of these 7 chords are made up only of notes found in the G Major scale.

To know why that second chord is a minor chord not a Major chord, you need to refer to the A Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

A major scale

A        B        C#        D        E        F#        G#
1        2         3          4         5         6          7

A                  C                 E

The A minor chord is made up of 2, 4, 6 (A, C, E) from the G Major scale.
Those notes compared to the A Major scale almost fit, but the 3rd note C is a semi-tone below the C# in the A major scale.
In other words it is a flat third ... b3.

And any chord whose formula is 1, b3, 5 is a minor chord by definition.

This can be done for all 7 chords above and it can be done for chords of 4 or more notes ... by reference to their own parent Major scale.

So the Major scale is the absolute reference point.


Ok so far?

 

close2u

Harmonising the major scale

Consider G major - using the major scale formula:
whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half  - we get these seven notes:
G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  
String several octaves together and you have:
G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  …

OK?

Now the chords in the scale (called the diatonic chords) are found using a process called ‘harmonising the major scale’.
These chords will all be triads (three note chords).
Take each of the seven notes in turn.
Each note is the root of a chord.
Each chord contains three notes.
One is the root note.
The other two notes are found at intervals of a third from the root.
This means count 1, miss 1, count 1, miss 1, count 1.
Giving the famous 1, 3, 5 chord formula.
To count this, the root note counts as 1.

So:
Chord I
Root note = G
G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  …
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = G, B, D
Chord = G Major

Chord II
Root note = A
A major scale = A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = A, C#, E
BUT
C# is not a note in the G major scale (the scale we are harmonising).
You see the only note with a ‘C’ in its name in the G major scale is C natural.
And we need to use only the notes in the G major scale when harmonising the G major scale.
Therefore, this third note from our counting must be ‘flattened’ to match the notes found in the G major scale.
So, instead of
1, 3, 5 = A, C#, E
G major scale has
1, b3, 5 = A, C, E
Chord = A minor (a flat 3rd note makes a minor chord)

Chord III
Root note = B
B major scale = B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = B, D#, F#
BUT
D# is not a note in the G major scale (the scale we are harmonising).
You see the only note with a ‘D’ in its name in the G major scale is D natural.
And we need to use only the notes in the G major scale when harmonising the G major scale.
Therefore, this third note from our counting must be ‘flattened’ to match the notes found in the G major scale.
So, instead of
1, 3, 5 = B, D#, F#
G major scale has
1, b3, 5 = B, D, F#
Chord = B minor (a flat 3rd note makes a minor chord)


Chord IV
Root note = C
C major scale = C, D, E, F, G, A, B
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = C, E, G
Chord = C Major

Chord V
Root note = D
D major scale = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#
Counting:
1, 3, 4, = D, F#, A
Chord = D Major

Chord VI
Root note = E
E major scale = E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = E, G#, B
BUT
G is not a note in the G major scale (the scale we are harmonising).
You see the only note with a ‘G’ in its name in the G major scale is G natural.
And we need to use only the notes in the G major scale when harmonising the G major scale.
Therefore, this third note from our counting must be ‘flattened’ to match the notes found in the G major scale.
So, instead of
1, 3, 5 = E, G#, B
G major scale has
1, b3, 5 = E, G, B
Chord = E minor (a flat 3rd note makes a minor chord)

Chord VII
Root note = F#
F# major scale = F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E#
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = F#, A#, C#
BUT
Neither A# nor C# are notes in the G major scale (the scale we are harmonising).
You see the only notes with ‘A’ or ‘C’ in their names in the G major scale are A
natural and C natural.
And we need to use only the notes in the G major scale when harmonising the G major scale.
Therefore, this third note and the fifth note from our counting must be ‘flattened’ to match the notes found in the G major scale.
So, instead of
1, 3, 5 = F#, A#, C#
G major scale has
1, b3, b5 = F#, A, C
Chord = F# diminished (a flat 3rd note and a flat 5th note makes a diminished chord)

HAL9000

I was about to post something very similar to the above post but Close2U beat me to it (and frankly made a far better fist of it than I could have done). Concise and well explained. Have a wisdom.

xibxang

I've just become a better man with this information! Many, many thanks! Can I ask you a favour, please? Could you do both of those posts for the scale of E and A, please? The reason I ask is because this is where I do most of my practicing and I can "see" it better when I'm more familiar.

Would it be a giant hassle to do this? Please don't be thinking I'm ungrateful for your help so far. Far from it!

monquixote

Shameless plug to something that I wrote, but this article has some stuff on basic chord theory and progresions and explains why most pop songs have the same chords: http://www.easyeartraining.com/learn/four-chords-and-the-truth/

viz

xibxang said:

@viz First of all, many thanks for the reply.

Secondly (and using your first example), you mention "I - IV - V - I" Am I right in saying that these represent the notes in the scale? Excuse my ignorance. I'm an engineer by day and a very amateur guitarist by night. I'm only now at the stage in my life where I'm trying to get my head around music theory at the pace of a racing snail. 

Yep exactly. I'm also an engineer by day and an amateur guitarist by night, so I know exactly what you mean!

HAL9000

Hi Xipxang

E Major scale consists of E F# G# A B C# D# E. 

 Chords in this scale are...

 

I    E       (E G#

ii   F#m (F# A C#) 

iii G#m   (G# B D#) 

IV  A         (A C# E) 

V   B         (B D# F#) 

vi C#m   (C# E G#) 

vii D#dim (D# F# A)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Major scale consists of A B C# D E F# G#. 

 Chords in this scale are...

 

I     A        (A C# E)

ii    Bm          (B D F#) 

iii C#m   (C# E G#) 

IV  D         (D F# A) 

V  E         (E G#  

vi  F#m    (F# A C#) 

vii  G#dim (G# B D)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps

close2u

xibxang said:

Could you do both of those posts for the scale of E and A, please?

@HAL9000 has given you the chords that you need to aim for.

However, there is no substitute, none, for writing it out and figuring it out yourself.

You'll be glad you did it and get some real satisfaction from how it all falls together... well, you will if you're anywhere on the spectrum of being a theory nerd!

Have a go yourself.
Just take my post and re-write it with the E & A Major scales (use the Major scale formula and your guitar neck).

Go on, go on, go on, go on.

frankus

xibxang said:

@viz First of all, many thanks for the reply.

Secondly (and using your first example), you mention "I - IV - V - I" Am I right in saying that these represent the notes in the scale? Excuse my ignorance. I'm an engineer by day and a very amateur guitarist by night. I'm only now at the stage in my life where I'm trying to get my head around music theory at the pace of a racing snail. 

The roman numerals are part of something called the Nashville Notation. It's been over-egged by people using lowercase to denote minor diatonic chords, I got told off for mentioning that by Dario Cortese "No!! don't do that!! he said" "but but", "No!!" --- he's an authentic Nashville session musician -- who're ya gonna trust?

The Nashville notation is used to describe chord progressions without a key signature, this was so the musicians could transpose tunes to fit around singers for that singers strongest register.

There are some musical keys that are easy to read and some that are not. E and A are difficult keys to read -- and play on the piano. Too many incidentals. Better to start with F, C or G

xibxang

Many thanks for all of your help, guys. This is exactly the type of information that I need to teach myself a bit of theory. Much appreciated.

Phil_aka_Pip

xibxang said:

I've just become a better man with this information! Many, many thanks! Can I ask you a favour, please? Could you do both of those posts for the scale of E and A, please? The reason I ask is because this is where I do most of my practicing and I can "see" it better when I'm more familiar.

Would it be a giant hassle to do this? Please don't be thinking I'm ungrateful for your help so far. Far from it!

The more worked examples you do the better the information will stick. Try this:

harmonise C major.
then write out its modes (ie do it stating on D but use the notes out of C major so go DEFGABCD, then sim for E etc)
for each mode work out which notes are not the same interval from the root as they would be if in a major scale (eg for the mode begining on D, you find the 3rd note is flat by one semitone compared to the interval between C and E)
You end up with a list of scale spellings. Notice two of them are only one note different to a major scale. What tweak would you apply to turn those modes into a major scale in its own right? Then repeat the operation with your new major scales. You should notice a pattern beginning to emerge; it'll help you to understand key signatures as well as mode spellings.

Clarky

frankus said:

xibxang said:

@viz First of all, many thanks for the reply.

Secondly (and using your first example), you mention "I - IV - V - I" Am I right in saying that these represent the notes in the scale? Excuse my ignorance. I'm an engineer by day and a very amateur guitarist by night. I'm only now at the stage in my life where I'm trying to get my head around music theory at the pace of a racing snail. 

The roman numerals are part of something called the Nashville Notation. It's been over-egged by people using lowercase to denote minor diatonic chords, I got told off for mentioning that by Dario Cortese "No!! don't do that!! he said" "but but", "No!!" --- he's an authentic Nashville session musician -- who're ya gonna trust?

The Nashville notation is used to describe chord progressions without a key signature, this was so the musicians could transpose tunes to fit around singers for that singers strongest register.

There are some musical keys that are easy to read and some that are not. E and A are difficult keys to read -- and play on the piano. Too many incidentals. Better to start with F, C or G

aparently, the use of Roman Numerals to represent chords comes from this fella

Georg Joseph Vogler, also known as Abbé Vogler (June 15, 1749 – May 6, 1814), Vogler was born at Pleichach in Würzburg.

DulcetJones

Years ago I was where you are now, and all the posts so far have great info, just like I got when I was posting questions like yours(on other forums before this one existed) but it wasn't until I sat down and read through a real theory text and did the exercises that the posts like these ones did me any real good.  It actually didn't take that much effort or time and I had so many "aha" moments when I finally grasped something and each part started to fit.  Now I compose music for guitar, bass, percussion, keyboards and other instruments I can't even play(not that I can really play keyboards or drums).  It's worth the effort and allows you to communicate more effectively with other musicians.

Hootsmon

close2u said:

Harmonising the major scale

Consider G major - using the major scale formula:
whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half  - we get these seven notes:
G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  
String several octaves together and you have:
G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  …

OK?

Now the chords in the scale (called the diatonic chords) are found using a process called ‘harmonising the major scale’.
These chords will all be triads (three note chords).
Take each of the seven notes in turn.
Each note is the root of a chord.
Each chord contains three notes.
One is the root note.
The other two notes are found at intervals of a third from the root.
This means count 1, miss 1, count 1, miss 1, count 1.
Giving the famous 1, 3, 5 chord formula.
To count this, the root note counts as 1.

So:
Chord I
Root note = G
G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  A  B  C  D  E  F#  G  …
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = G, B, D
Chord = G Major

Chord II
Root note = A
A major scale = A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = A, C#, E
BUT
C# is not a note in the G major scale (the scale we are harmonising).
You see the only note with a ‘C’ in its name in the G major scale is C natural.
And we need to use only the notes in the G major scale when harmonising the G major scale.
Therefore, this third note from our counting must be ‘flattened’ to match the notes found in the G major scale.
So, instead of
1, 3, 5 = A, C#, E
G major scale has
1, b3, 5 = A, C, E
Chord = A minor (a flat 3rd note makes a minor chord)

Chord III
Root note = B
B major scale = B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = B, D#, F#
BUT
D# is not a note in the G major scale (the scale we are harmonising).
You see the only note with a ‘D’ in its name in the G major scale is D natural.
And we need to use only the notes in the G major scale when harmonising the G major scale.
Therefore, this third note from our counting must be ‘flattened’ to match the notes found in the G major scale.
So, instead of
1, 3, 5 = B, D#, F#
G major scale has
1, b3, 5 = B, D, F#
Chord = B minor (a flat 3rd note makes a minor chord)


Chord IV
Root note = C
C major scale = C, D, E, F, G, A, B
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = C, E, G
Chord = C Major

Chord V
Root note = D
D major scale = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#
Counting:
1, 3, 4, = D, F#, A
Chord = D Major

Chord VI
Root note = E
E major scale = E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = E, G#, B
BUT
G is not a note in the G major scale (the scale we are harmonising).
You see the only note with a ‘G’ in its name in the G major scale is G natural.
And we need to use only the notes in the G major scale when harmonising the G major scale.
Therefore, this third note from our counting must be ‘flattened’ to match the notes found in the G major scale.
So, instead of
1, 3, 5 = E, G#, B
G major scale has
1, b3, 5 = E, G, B
Chord = E minor (a flat 3rd note makes a minor chord)

Chord VII
Root note = F#
F# major scale = F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E#
Counting:
1, 3, 5 = F#, A#, C#
BUT
Neither A# nor C# are notes in the G major scale (the scale we are harmonising).
You see the only notes with ‘A’ or ‘C’ in their names in the G major scale are A
natural and C natural.
And we need to use only the notes in the G major scale when harmonising the G major scale.
Therefore, this third note and the fifth note from our counting must be ‘flattened’ to match the notes found in the G major scale.
So, instead of
1, 3, 5 = F#, A#, C#
G major scale has
1, b3, b5 = F#, A, C
Chord = F# diminished (a flat 3rd note and a flat 5th note makes a diminished chord)

Me again From chord I I on.......why bring a second scale into the procedure..? Continuing to count in thirds from the original scale will produce the same results

close2u

hootsmon said:

Me again From chord I I on.......why bring a second scale into the procedure..? Continuing to count in thirds from the original scale will produce the same results

Good question.

We are harmonising the G Major scale.
But only the first (root) note is a G note.
Stacking in 3rds from that G we get 1, 3, 5 = G Major chord (1, 3, 5 is the formula).
Those notes being G, B, D.

Once we go to the 2nd A note we have a different situation.
Stacking in 3rds from the A note we get 2, 4, 6.
Those notes being A, C, E.
Hmmm!!
There is no chord with that formula.
And besides, the root note of this chord is a A note anyway so using the G Major scale to deduce it's character just won't work.
We need to use the A major scale to deduce the character of a chord whose root note is A.
Once we do that we can see that a chord stacked in 3rds from the A Major scale would be A, C#, E.
And that is not what we had.
We had A, C, E.
So, only by comparing the actual 3 notes that we have taken from within the G Major scale and comparing them with the Major scale of the root note of the triad we thus create can we begin to see what formula those 3 notes follow.
In the case of the II chord from the G Major scale, the formula is 1, b3, 5 = A minor.

You have to compare the triads to the Major scale of each of the root note of the triads.
Always.
Even though you are sourcing all of your work from the G Major scale.
Does that make sense?

Hootsmon

Why complicate matters.? If you are to harmonise the g major scale only the g major scale itself is required for the job! Moving in thirds all the way through will give you the EXACT same chords WITHOUT the need of a second scale to complicate things......all my books at home teach this way as do numerous sites on the net The second fourth and sixth give the spelling A C and E. = a min The third fifth and seventh give the spelling B D and F#....... = B min and so on. If one has to only harmonise the scale there is no simpler way to do it

close2u

hootsmon said:

Why complicate matters.?

What I am explaining, in addition to laying out a full harmonisation of the Major scale, is a secondary issue ... why the II & III chords are minor, the IV & V are Major, the VI is minor and the VII is diminished.
This is a secondary part to the main affair.
But I don't think it is complicating matters if read carefully and with a thirst for knowledge.