Venue Issues - "Loud" drums

Jetfire

So how long have you been a sound engineer for? It was so we didnt sound like a band in the corner.. I think you may have missed the part at the end where we said we turned all the drums out of the pa and we were still too loud.. apparently..

RocknRollDave

p90fool said:

I honestly think that drum mics are silly and conceited at some gigs. We played one of those horrible, boomy village halls last weekend using an unmiked Flats kit and it was still deafening and tiring for the band.

It went down well and everyone assured us it sounded fine, but the idea of miking the kit for "spread and balance" (ie, trying to crush the reverb with sheer volume) would've got us paid off and thrown out, and rightly so.

I'm sorry, but fully miking a drum kit for a bingo gig is not just ego, it's pure Spinal Tap.

I respectfully disagree.

I can't see how a drumkit can be tiring and deafening unless the drummer has no sense of dynamics and just full on belts the living daylights out of his kit - in which case I wouldn't want to be working with him.

For us, the idea of mic'ing everything up isn't to be louder, it's to have more control, and to allow us to be quieter on stage - back line amps don't need to be anything like as loud when in effect they are mostly just monitors for the band cos the PA is handling the FOH sound. Quieter on-stage levels = drummer not having to take to his kit like he's trying to get it small enough to fit in the recycling bin.

EDIT: For me, our drums sound better in the mix when they go through the PA than they do on their own trying to compete with vocals etc

maltingsaudio

I would rather have mics on drums and not use them than wish I had during a gig, as I've said before a PA is there for sound reinforcement not just to make things louder!

PolarityMan

I think there is some dependence on music type. for what we do it's nice to at least have the bass drum reinforced (althoguh we can and do play without when we're using our own PA).

The real problem is that drums are a poorly balanced instrument, cymbals are far far too loud, especially up close, when compared to the other drums. It's hard for a drummer to play fast and hard on the bass drums and snare while being gentle on the cymbals.

Mic'ing lets you address this problem.

JayGee

PolarityMan said:

The real problem is that drums are a poorly balanced instrument, cymbals are far far too loud, especially up close, when compared to the other drums. It's hard for a drummer to play fast and hard on the bass drums and snare while being gentle on the cymbals.

Mic'ing lets you address this problem.

I get that, I really do. The trouble is that you can only correct those balance issues by making the quieter things louder, and in a small room (like a typical pub or small club) that can quickly lead to things getting a bit silly...

PolarityMan

It's true. I havent used them yet bhut I bought a set of cymbals that are made out of a fine metal mesh, theyre designed to have a picup/mic placed under them for use with an electric kit. I havent used them in anger but I wonder if similar changes in construction to cymbals could help reduce the problem. The issue is like all instruments marketting for drummers is based around being loud, cutting through the mix etc.

Danny1969

Always mic the drums, you might not need em but if you haven't mic'ed em and you do need em your screwed. 

If you think about it the vocal mic's out front are generally only about 2 metres away from the drums at a pub \ club gig so your drums are mic'ed wherever you like it or not. This tends to exaggerate the volume of the cymbals so being able to counter that with some drum close mic's is a good thing. You can make a kit less "annoying" by mic'ing it 

Also never apologize for being on stage, not in appearance or volume. Sometimes you make things worse by turning down, sometimes it's better to make them have no choice but to listen to you rather than some halfhearted performance

Sometimes they just don't want a band but they booked one and that's un-winable. In that case make sure your fee is so high they won't book you unless they really want you

Did 2 very well paid wedding gigs on Sat and Sun in same smallish venue. Both times drums were all mic'ed, sounded loud but great quality

stickyfiddle

Danny1969 said:

Always mic the drums, you might not need em but if you haven't mic'ed em and you do need em your screwed. 

If you think about it the vocal mic's out front are generally only about 2 metres away from the drums at a pub \ club gig so your drums are mic'ed wherever you like it or not. This tends to exaggerate the volume of the cymbals so being able to counter that with some drum close mic's is a good thing. You can make a kit less "annoying" by mic'ing it 

Also never apologize for being on stage, not in appearance or volume. Sometimes you make things worse by turning down, sometimes it's better to make them have no choice but to listen to you rather than some halfhearted performance

Sometimes they just don't want a band but they booked one and that's un-winable. In that case make sure your fee is so high they won't book you unless they really want you

Did 2 very well paid wedding gigs on Sat and Sun in same smallish venue. Both times drums were all mic'ed, sounded loud but great quality

Agree with all of that. Of course step one to achieving the high-fee thing is "Be a really good band", which is hard work unless everyone is properly committed 

jpfamps

PolarityMan said:

I think there is some dependence on music type. for what we do it's nice to at least have the bass drum reinforced (althoguh we can and do play without when we're using our own PA).

The real problem is that drums are a poorly balanced instrument, cymbals are far far too loud, especially up close, when compared to the other drums. It's hard for a drummer to play fast and hard on the bass drums and snare while being gentle on the cymbals.

Mic'ing lets you address this problem.

Which is why drummers need to learn to balance the volume of the drum kit: unfortunately many don't even realize you need to do this.

koneguitarist

PolarityMan said:

I think there is some dependence on music type. for what we do it's nice to at least have the bass drum reinforced (althoguh we can and do play without when we're using our own PA).

The real problem is that drums are a poorly balanced instrument, cymbals are far far too loud, especially up close, when compared to the other drums. It's hard for a drummer to play fast and hard on the bass drums and snare while being gentle on the cymbmals.

Mic'ing lets you address this problem.

Learning how to tune kit, and having right kit for bands sound also helps. I do agree that it's a bit dependant on music genre, just that after all these years guitarists have used pedals to get their sound at lower volumes for consistency, but a lot of drummers are still stuck in the dark ages. 

Hot rod sticks, and lighter gauges of sticks, help reduce volume so does certain skins. 

In your average sized pubs there is no need to mic up drums generally, people who do generally use PA to make their sound, rather than reinforce the sound they have.

Classic example was the sound person this weekend at a festival, the onstage sound was appalling due to the whole kit being mic'd up and fed back through monitors, we wanted drums out of onstage mix completely, likewise guitar and bass, only acoustic, keys and vocals were needed, instead we were told can't get vocals louder as they only had 2k of monitors on stage!

Strange, I left after our spot to do another gig, where I had a better onstage sound with my three 8" active monitors, both gigs outdoors! 

We get a consistent sound pretty much everywhere we play, mainly due to mix of drummer and back line being right, we can always play louder, that's what the PA sliders are for !

p90fool

RocknRollDave;264793" said:

p90fool said:

I honestly think that drum mics are silly and conceited at some gigs. We played one of those horrible, boomy village halls last weekend using an unmiked Flats kit and it was still deafening and tiring for the band.



It went down well and everyone assured us it sounded fine, but the idea of miking the kit for "spread and balance" (ie, trying to crush the reverb with sheer volume) would've got us paid off and thrown out, and rightly so.



I'm sorry, but fully miking a drum kit for a bingo gig is not just ego, it's pure Spinal Tap.

I respectfully disagree.



I can't see how a drumkit can be tiring and deafening unless the drummer has no sense of dynamics and just full on belts the living daylights out of his kit - in which case I wouldn't want to be working with him.



For us, the idea of mic'ing everything up isn't to be louder, it's to have more control, and to allow us to be quieter on stage - back line amps don't need to be anything like as loud when in effect they are mostly just monitors for the band cos the PA is handling the FOH sound. Quieter on-stage levels = drummer not having to take to his kit like he's trying to get it small enough to fit in the recycling bin.



EDIT: For me, our drums sound better in the mix when they go through the PA than they do on their own trying to compete with vocals etc

Well, it was tiring and deafening because of the room acoustics not the kit. She was using an unmiked Flats kit with either 7As or bundles, light cymbals and her dynamic control is the reason she got the job. No backline either, guitars and bass DI'd, along with two vocal mics, so I can pretty much guarantee our onstage volume is about as controlled and balanced as it gets.

I have total control over the mix and have years of experience live and in the studio, and it works very well.

I know I'm playing devil's advocate here on a musician's forum, but I think a lot of bands totally lack empathy with the real audience in front of them sometimes, and end up playing the type of gig they wish it was rather than what's really in front of them.

If you play in a covers band you will sometimes end up playing to an audience who wish there wasn't a band at all, but it's your job to make it work. These people don't care about your onstage mix, or whether your cymbals are overwhelming your toms, they want you to be entertaining and not too bloody loud!

Yes, I know drums sound better miked, I've been doing this for years, but it also makes them louder, and hearing musicians say they MUST have this or that in order to perform at their best when it's contrary to the requirements of the gig or desire of the audience is why I used the word "conceited".

Monkeybone

koneguitarist;265214" said:

Classic example was the sound person this weekend at a festival, the onstage sound was appalling due to the whole kit being mic'd up and fed back through monitors, we wanted drums out of onstage mix completely, likewise guitar and bass, only acoustic, keys and vocals were needed, instead we were told can't get vocals louder as they only had 2k of monitors on stage!Strange, I left after our spot to do another gig, where I had a better onstage sound with my three 8" active monitors, both gigs outdoors! 

We get a consistent sound pretty much everywhere we play, mainly due to mix of drummer and back line being right, we can always play louder, that's what the PA sliders are for !

I know the sound person you mean, the same sound person at the same festival decided to soundcheck our lead singer's vocals but not mine or our bassist's, which didn't help when it came to me singing lead for one song, we did ask if our vocals would be checked only to get "I'll mix it while you're playing" as a reply.

Anyway, back to the topic...

thomasw88

Did a gig in a big marquee last week. Pa looked not great, and sound man seemed miles away.. All of us in the band thought the sounds was going to be terrible. It was ace on stage and out front. Sound man knew his gear and gave a fuck unlike a lot of them..

ElectroDan

I've experienced much of this too. Got asked at a venue to turn down because people couldn't hear themselves talking!!! #-o

A good tip when faced with sound limiters, is to say " Yes i'll plug my rig into it, after you sign this contract taking responsibility for any damage it causes my gear!" And having the mains pulled WILL damage something, so don't ever use them.

You will sometimes get the odd arse hole who will say "If you don't plug into it you don't play!" That's when it's good to be able to say  "I can either play and get paid, or you can send me home and i'll sit in front of my telly and wait for the Equity/Musicians Union solicitors to get me paid!"

This kind of thing is great to keep up your sleeve purely as a last resort. But you should try to be as accommodating as possible first. More often than not a compromise can be reached. There is a fine line between being a prick, and justifiably standing your ground. 

Phil_aka_Pip

My memories of WMCs is that there is some kind of unwritten setlist you have to play. They don't want what's not on it and if you don't play eg Blanket On The Ground they get rather pissed off about it. They only want what they know, and if they don't know it (or your hair is too long) you will automatically be "too loud".

Danny1969

Phil_aka_Pip said:

My memories of WMCs is that there is some kind of unwritten setlist you have to play. They don't want what's not on it and if you don't play eg Blanket On The Ground they get rather pissed off about it. They only want what they know, and if they don't know it (or your hair is too long) you will automatically be "too loud".

Ha Ha, yeah that was about the case 20 years ago ..... I think most of those guys are dead now though. Most patrons in the WMC's I do tend to be between 30 and 65, and they generally want stuff like Sweet Home Alabama and Mr Brightside. I play the same stuff in WMC's as I do the pubs, seems to go down well. The one's we gig are pretty big so can cope with a bit of volume

Phil_aka_Pip

You are right @Danny1969, those memories do date from the early 1990s