Is your knowledge better than your playing...

musicegbdf

Well I think mine is now. I started out years ago without a clue. Just played what I heard on records or what mates showed me. Did not know a Pentatonic from a kettle ...
Years on I have spent the last few years educating myself and my brain is now streets ahead of my playing . I read stuff, learn the positions and get the theory , but then I play and it sounds crap, so I go back to just playing by ear.... but that is very limited ...

I suppose my playing is maybe getting better , but way behind what my ears tell me sounds good. I think I am going to have to stop thinking about the modes, etc to use and start concentrating which chord tone to target , which seems to be what I do when I don't think about it. When I don't think my ears seem to drift me to the right note at least 90% of the time. The problem is that it can be bland.....

I waffling now ....

mike_l

Yes.

close2u

Yes.

ArchtopDave

Me too yes.

ElectroDan

No ( fortunately ). I know VERY little about the theory of music. It means I have limitations as a musician (have to learn most of what i'm playing in advance). But I hate jam nights anyway! )

I'm still working on it, and there are area's I want to improve. But I'm more than happy with my tone and playing.

digitalscream

No. Quite the opposite...I know very little, so it's not difficult for my playing to quickly outstrip my knowledge. I cover it by playing lots of notes in a short space of time, thus not giving anybody enough time to think about my note choice.

ToneShackTrev

Opposite for me too. I made the mistake of concentrating on technique over knowledge. I'm now playing catchup all the time.

EricTheWeary

Probably yes. That's why it's easier to hang out on guitar forums than play... :o3

frankus

Eric Roche used to say "head, hands and heart should all be about the same".

Most people take head to mean theory but what the brain does in music is far more than identify the names we give to the sounds.

A lot of bookish people have brain at a more developed stage than hands... and if I'm honest this can ruin "heart". Where Emo Philips said "I used to think my brain was the most beautiful organ in my body till I figured out what was telling me that" ... your ego can make all sorts of excuses about playing and in my experience the more the brain is invested in this process the less honest the results can be.

The frontal lobe is only for teaching and monitoring practice.

I've practised some things so much I can do them whilst talking and according to Victor Wooten, we should all practise this way. this kind of knowledge requires the amygdala and a shit load of practice... this is were pitch and fretting combine ... at that stage the creative mind can imagine and subconscious mind can provide.

I've kinda got that in some parts and I'm working to make that more comprehensive - in order to do that I ignore the distractingly entertaining world of euclydian geometry and base-12 mathematics known as music theory...

I'll be honest - my head hands and heart are all at advanced stages but not coordinated and this is what I'm trying to remedy.

musicegbdf

I suppose maybe I should have titled this "Does knowledge of theory aid or stifle creativity".

As many of you will know my daughter is on the path of a full time singer and songwriter. And oddly it is the songwriting that looks like paying up first.
 She has very limited knowledge of music and plays piano and guitar mainly by ear.
 She works with two full time songwriters who both have a number of hits to their names. I assumed they were accomplished musicians. No ..talking to one of them they can't even play a single instrument ! They get together and "create" once they have done this they take a number of the creations to her producer.
He is a classically trained musician , and did the circuit in N.America as a concert pianist and he pulls it all together. (BTW his GAS would make us all cry. Because my daughter is more "rock" than he usually works with he HAD to buy a 60's strat for around $20k).
So I found it interesting that these full time professionals are not burdened by theory... ?

digitalscream

musicegbdf said:

So I found it interesting that these full time professionals are not burdened by theory... ?

Perhaps the implication is that a lot of people over-think it. We, as guitarists, are often guilty of thinking about music solely from the perspective of the guitar - and, on its own, the guitar part in a song (particularly a pop song) is often not that interesting. So...we make it more interesting by applying theory knowledge to add to the basic idea...the question is, does it actually add anything to the song from the perspective of an untrained listener who just likes music?

I'd venture to suggest that, more often than not, the answer is "no".

EricTheWeary

the Discussion on creating chords behind a melody was interesting. A lot of the replies would get you to a  chord structure that was diatonic. A reasonable understanding of the major scale/ western musical theory pulls you in that direction but then you are limited by your understanding.

For example - Otis Redding wrote some songs on a guitar with an open G major tuning. So, IIRC, Dock of the Bay is all major chords and so isn't diatonic - he wouldn't have come up with those changes based on an understanding of how the major scale works. It was written with one finger holding the chords so the 'outside' thinking was accidental.

Watching that song writing thing with Guy Chambers what you are after is a hook. That could be a drum pattern, a melody, a clever use of words. Applying the theory around it to make it work musically is the humdrum thing that you can pay people to do.

frankus

Song Writers always get the money - look at Pink Floyd, Coldplay, U2, Blur, The Police - which dude is living in the mansion? The Song writer.

It's the way copyright works. It's not right, but that's how it is.

Next - theory is only saying what's worked before, which in terms of song-writing is called derivative and doesn't find mass appeal.

You wouldn't trust your predictive text to write a cohesive sentence even though it knows the combinations of words you use together. It uses rules

What we love in songs is how it vocalises a feeling we know... how can music theory do that? scientists gave up trying to predict the mind long ago and struggle to observe it instead... in doing so they borrow terms from literature.

musicegbdf

digitalscream said:

musicegbdf said:

So I found it interesting that these full time professionals are not burdened by theory... ?

Perhaps the implication is that a lot of people over-think it. We, as guitarists, are often guilty of thinking about music solely from the perspective of the guitar - and, on its own, the guitar part in a song (particularly a pop song) is often not that interesting. So...we make it more interesting by applying theory knowledge to add to the basic idea...the question is, does it actually add anything to the song from the perspective of an untrained listener who just likes music?

I'd venture to suggest that, more often than not, the answer is "no".

Very good point. I have seen how she writes. The lyric seems to come first. Then she starts filling out using the guitar to structure , then onto the piano.
I hear her going up and down the stairs (Piano is downstairs as it is a full size upright.) There are scraps of paper all over the place. When the song reaches full structure they go into her "book" which she takes to LA with her.
She then records herself on her iphone and sends emails it to herself (as backup). Sometimes she comes and askes me for a chord to fit in the progression she is working on. She will say "Dad can you give me a minor jazzy chord between these?" 
Interestingly most people who hear her songs(non Muso's) comment on the lyrics being mini stories. I think she creates the lyric and rough structure and the pro's then polish it for her, but the lyric is the strength of the song.

Now me , I have lot's of half finished progressions/riff things and no lyrics ! The only songs I have ever completed were written as a band. I usually came up with the basic idea , the singer wrote the lyrics and the bass player and drummer brought real structure. On my own I am crap  :-) Lucky I don't earn my living doing it.

musicegbdf

frankus said:

Song Writers always get the money - look at Pink Floyd, Coldplay, U2, Blur, The Police - which dude is living in the mansion? The Song writer.

And their publisher has an even bigger mansion next door !

mike_l

musicegbdf said:

(BTW his GAS would make us all cry. Because my daughter is more "rock" than he usually works with he HAD to buy a 60's strat for around $20k).
So I found it interesting that these full time professionals are not burdened by theory... ?

HAD to buy a $20K guitar?

 

As for not knowing theory, James Hetfield claims to not know the notes on the neck, as well as no theory, and he's done ok....

musicegbdf

Yep , had to :-)
I can't wait to visit his studio. Many big stars have recorded there , and the gear laying around looks awsome.

mike_l

musicegbdf said:

Yep , had to :-)
I can't wait to visit his studio. Many big stars have recorded there , and the gear laying around looks awsome.

I'm guessing the cases that go empty will come back full? >:)

ChrisMusic

I am intrigued by frankus's comments earlier.  "Eric Roche used to say "head, hands and heart should all be about the same", that rings so true if you are striving to be a well rounded musician.  It also points to the need to find balance, which is applicable to all things in life, I believe.

I just love the irony of - Emo Philips said "I used to think my brain was the most beautiful organ in my body till I figured out what was telling me that"

So with that in mind, an open question to @frankus, or anyone here with a perspective on this:

How do you train, develop and expand the realm of the "heart" ?

I believe is really the crux of the bigger question here.

frankus

I like that question

First off the brain is a collection of organs itself, and doesn't have a monopoly on sophisticated cells, the gut, spine and heart have a bundle of them and they link through several different networks, the limbic system (associated with instinct) being the fastest.

One of the brains overused parts is medula oblongata inhibiting us by firing stress hormones off every time we try to do something outside norms. It's a bit like an over-bearing auto-pilot, even when you resume control it will continue to try and high-jack. Admittedly it also enables us to breath and other important things so it's not all bad.

When we're out of auto-pilot, we're in the unknown and rightfully a little scared, emotions are what navigates then - so it's important to be able to observe emotions without doubt and decide if we want to go where they're taking us. At that point as a person you're on the edge, reacting to life as it happens.

There's an old saying, we recall 30% of what we see, 10% of what we hear and 100% of what we feel -- so when we fall out of that moment, off the wagon, out of the flow and are back in auto-pilot, in the comfort zone, like Mr Benn we can still look at that souvenir and turn it over in our hands and explore the emotion.

Spend too long intellectualising or brutalise to gain muscle memory and it's harder to get to feelings, they become quietly frightening unfamiliar and we forget to explore them.

musicegbdf

Wow , the thread is getting almost intelligent , have I drifted into a different forum.

I suppose heart is the stuff that takes us beyond most other animals on the planet. It is what is inside us that goes beyond our basic instincts of survival and perpetuating the species (or Eating and Shagging for my fellow essex boys) ....

The problem for most of us is how we get to express those elements of creativity and personality , this is possibly why we feel so stressed in the modern world as our lives are now compartmentalised and could behind the various rages we suffer (Road/Supermarket/Computers ,etc).

For me I (and I guess most of us on this forum) when I really play , I mean really switch off the brain and let it flow , there is huge effort and tension that builds up inside of me and releases and is almost the same as having sex.   I am not thinking about anything it just happens . It is only when the brain engages that it goes wrong , as Frankus says "switching off the auto pilot.