Help.. tips for playing an acoustic live.

Si_

Hi all, just after an hint or tips I can get.. I used my acoustic with the band for the first time (Taylor GS-Mini E), connected it to the PA with the correct cable and all is working, however it sound terrible. very toppy and shrill and it was feeding back like a BITCH, I had to get the volume on the guitar so low to stop it that you couldn't hear it anymore with the band.  EQ on the desk was all at noon, and using the 2 EQ dials on the guitar did very little.

Any hints or tips on what I'm going wrong?

Bidley

I assume your guitar has a proper onboard preamp? Because it sounds like crappy-piezo-with-no-preamp-syndrome.

Feedback-wise, those rubber soundhole covers can help a lot. Monitor/mic positioning is key as well.

Si_

I believe it has the Taylor Expression System.

John_P

I use the Taylor exp system and it sounds great - It sounds like something isn't wired correctly for it to sound the way your describe it.

Si_

I took a straight cable from the guitar jack to an input on the desk, as per the manual used a TRS to XLR cable. 

A quick google shows the GS-Mini use the ES-T pickup system. 

Si_

Ah.. found this video with might be useful.. I don't remember reading about this little phase switch in the manual.

John_P

Mine is the built in system on a 314ce but it sounds loud and clear and I've never had feedback, playing through some loud rigs...

If the pickup is fine then I'd double check the gain on the desk channel is set right and then double check the cable - I haven't checked out the pickup on the GSmini but it shouldn't sound like that.

ICBM

Sounds like a desk problem - possibly the channel clipping. That would cause terrible feedback and a nasty scratchy shrill sound, and it would probably make the guitar EQ controls seem to do nothing - since the top-end (and any boomy bottom-end too) would be a product of the distortion, not the guitar signal itself. Reducing the guitar volume below the point the channel clipped would cure it.

Where was the channel gain set? If that wasn't too high it's possible (though I wouldn't think likely) that the input simply won't take the level from the guitar. Is it your PA, and can you test it away from a gig?

streethawk

Have you tried it through an amp?

Touch the endpin and see if it quietens down.

If it does you might try contacting Taylor and see if they'll give you a grounding kit. 

Si_

It was the Rehearsal room PA so probably cheap and nasty. I con't recall the clip light coming on, but will check next time. Desk gain was at noon.

I'm sure the above might have an influence, but not sure it was all of the problem, I could actually "feel" the feedback in the guitar, I could feel it vibrating. Also seemed to build up to be VERY boomy, and I could feel that in the guitar.

ICBM

Si_ said:

It was the Rehearsal room PA so probably cheap and nasty. I con't recall the clip light coming on, but will check next time. Desk gain was at noon.

I'm sure the above might have an influence, but not sure it was all of the problem, I could actually "feel" the feedback in the guitar, I could feel it vibrating. Also seemed to build up to be VERY boomy, and I could feel that in the guitar.

Feedback does make the guitar body vibrate, that's normal - it's getting such severe feedback that's not.

Definitely try the desk gain a long way below noon - maybe even all the way down (depending on whether it's a to-zero scale). Run the channel level (fader) up higher to get the volume you need. It's also possible the clip light wouldn't come on if the input gain stage was where the clipping occured, rather than after the gain control. If that's the case you need to do the opposite - run the guitar volume low and turn *up* the gain to compensate.

It could also just be that in a confined space and at a fairly high volume, you're at the point where the closed-loop gain is above where feedback will always occur though.

stickyfiddle

if in a rehearsal room the feedback will be made worse by having the speakers pointing at you (and therefore the guitar), as is often the case in practice rooms. Get away from the speakers if at all possible!

crunchman

If your preamp is active, it might put out a pretty hot signal - it may too hot for the desk even with the gain set really low.  XLR inputs are normally designed for mic level stuff.

The channel on the desk may have a pad button, or maybe something saying line/mic.  You may need to use that.

wayneirie

You need a di box, straight into the desk will always be pony.

Si_

I thought the Taylor electronics were Ok straight into the Desk.. at least that's what it advises in the manual..

wayneirie

Toppy and shrill, with no body to the sound would indicate, either an impedance mismatch or a phasing issue. To me I think a di would probably solve your problems. At any decent sized gig you'll be asked to plug into a di box. Regardless of whatever on board preamp. You do or don't have.

ICBM

wayneirie said:

Toppy and shrill, with no body to the sound would indicate, either an impedance mismatch or a phasing issue.

There's plenty of body, it's giving boomy feedback and a shrill sound which appears to not be controllable by the guitar EQ - which sounds like clipping distortion to me.

wayneirie said:

At any decent sized gig you'll be asked to plug into a di box. Regardless of whatever on board preamp. You do or don't have.

Agreed, which is why I found it a bit puzzling that Taylor should design such a system - but they did, and it does have a balanced output, so it *should* be possible to plug it straight into the desk. This is not the same problem as plugging a standard unbalanced electro into a PA.

I agree that a DI box may fix it, but it shouldn't be necessary to buy one just for practicing in a rehearsal room.

Si_

I'll be using it live from october when the gigs start with the new band so might as well pick up a DI box now as I'll probably need it.. Ill see if that fixes the issue or not.

wayneirie

It seems like the same sound you get when you plug an unbalanced cable into a desk channel. So possible fixes would be testing cables used, using alternate desk channel. Testing jack on guitar. I would also look at the battery as well, that it works and it's seated properly. I'm aware it has an on board preamp and desk gain does sound high. I'm merely suggesting possible faults.

ICBM

To be perfectly honest I detest all onboard electrics in acoustic instruments! They are the bane of my life as a repair tech.

Far better to have a passive transducer onboard and do all the rest with an external preamp and DI (separate or combined) in my opinion. It makes troubleshooting and upgrading far easier, is a lot more reliable in the first place, and if something does go wrong it's much easier to bypass it all and get by, even if the sound isn't as good.

If God had meant acoustic guitars to be plugged in he wouldn't have invented the Telecaster .

Danny1969

You won't normally have any problems with a Taylor straight into a decent desk, we use a 6 and a 12 string with the expression system and don't have a prob. I'm a big fan of the expression system it works really well for live and recording

You need to PFL the channel to make sure your not clipping the input channel, some mic pres on a desk have a minimum gain which could still be too high so if so look for a pad or plug the guitar into the line input.