no keyboard player at last nights gig

John_P

Following the discussion about volume...    my gig last night had to be done without the keyboard player...

I found out on thusday so I had a few spare hours to check the set and after ditching final countdown and jump  I figured I could cover pretty much all the other regular songs in the set if I merge his parts with mine where they matter.

Gig turned out great and the audienece didn't seem to notice     (it's a venue we do every couple of months).

But -  the on stage sound was a million times better - I could how the bassist (for better and worse!)  and I could hear myself!    I had to tone down the leaping around and headbanging a little so that side was less fun but I really enjoyed playing guitar instead...
He's a mate and a great player so we would never lose hom from the band but his diary now doesn't matter as much when we're booking gigs...

benvall

I always find that it is really hard to get a good stage mix with lots of musicians, unless you've got great monitors. I play in a 4 piece, the singer occasionally plays the odd song on guitar. I prefer it when he doesn't. I feel I'm fighting his volume all the time he is playing.

ICBM

John_P said:

Following the discussion about volume...    my gig last night had to be done without the keyboard player...

I found out on thusday so I had a few spare hours to check the set and after ditching final countdown and jump  I figured I could cover pretty much all the other regular songs in the set if I merge his parts with mine where they matter.

Gig turned out great and the audienece didn't seem to notice     (it's a venue we do every couple of months).

But -  the on stage sound was a million times better - I could how the bassist (for better and worse!)  and I could hear myself!    I had to tone down the leaping around and headbanging a little so that side was less fun but I really enjoyed playing guitar instead...
He's a mate and a great player so we would never lose hom from the band but his diary now doesn't matter as much when we're booking gigs...

Sounds like he's usually either too loud in the monitors, or very likely just occupying far too wide a frequency spectrum... which is a common problem with keyboards. It's a particular problem if the keyboardist doesn't have their own amp or a dedicated monitor mix, since it then has to go through the other monitors at higher volume than it needs to.

Bellycaster

I saw a 9 piece (3 Sax, 1 Trombone, Bass, Guitar, Drums, Keys, Vocals)Soul band last night in Christchurch, Dorset. The Keyboard was waaaaaaay to loud and the Guitarist was playing Rhythm only and was barely audible.

The keys were piercingly loud and almost at the same level of the
Vocalist. They were a good band and the crowd liked them, the mix was bad though.

I ended up going to another pub that had a Jazz Quartet on(Sax, Keys, Drums, Double Bass) No Guitarist and it was all instrumental but they were fantastic. I was told the artist was called Sarah Poulter(Sax) and bloody hell, could she play and the mix was spot on.

Can't find bugger all on t'internet about that name so am wondering if I heard
the name right.

John_P

ICBM said:
Sounds like he's usually either too loud in the monitors, or very likely just occupying far too wide a frequency spectrum... which is a common problem with keyboards. It's a particular problem if the keyboardist doesn't have their own amp or a dedicated monitor mix, since it then has to go through the other monitors at higher volume than it needs to.

Yes I've been trying to explain this to him for years - I used to do a lot of mixing (studio and live) and I've tried so hard to suggest better ways to use his gear -  he has an active cab that could be used as a wedge but he says it sounds better on the floor stood up straight so the sound goes past his knees.  He is also a terrible noodler  so the combination means he takes up all the space in the sound.

It's fine - it's just a pub band and we're more about entertaining and having a laugh but it was a really nice change last night to enjoy hearing the guitar so clearly

ESBlonde

The trouble with a lot of keyboarders (and guitarists to an extent) is that they play with both hands doing the bass and melody all the bloody time. The trick (and it takes time to develop) is for the keys to be played more one handed and atmospheric and also the guitar to be less full on too. Less really is more.

We had and eight piece soul band and with everyone going and all the voices at once it was a thick wall of sound, but the real light and shade came from each doing their own thing. It's a bit like stadium drum sounds/playing, space the beats out and they sound bigger and fuller.

EricTheWeary

keyboards can end up adding a big wash of sound that covers everything and everybody else ends up being there just to make up the numbers. In some cases take away the keys and suddenly some quite dodgy timing issues come up for the rest of the band.
Keyboardists also tend to default to padding their way through the chord changes rather than playing parts, so they dictate the sound and the harmony. The guitar equivalent is doing 6 note chord strums on everything. Good keyboardists in almost any genre don't do this but is often the default position of pub band ones. I guess quite often playing on stage how they would play at home - doing the singalong version of everything.
Of course I might just be speaking from bitter experience and its only the ones I've played with who do this...

RocknRollDave

^ This. And the fact of the matter is that some songs really don't need keyboards in and the keyboardist would be put to better use shaking a tambourine or a shaker or some other kind of percussion.

When the Manics started using a keyboardist, it was fine for the newer songs that needed it but it made a farce of songs like Motown Junk that really don't need Bontempi Hammond all over them.

Kebabkid

Bellycaster said:

I saw a 9 piece (3 Sax, 1 Trombone, Bass, Guitar, Drums, Keys, Vocals)Soul band last night in Christchurch, Dorset. The Keyboard was waaaaaaay to loud and the Guitarist was playing Rhythm only and was barely audible.

The keys were piercingly loud and almost at the same level of the
Vocalist. They were a good band and the crowd liked them, the mix was bad though.

I ended up going to another pub that had a Jazz Quartet on(Sax, Keys, Drums, Double Bass) No Guitarist and it was all instrumental but they were fantastic. I was told the artist was called Sarah Poulter(Sax) and bloody hell, could she play and the mix was spot on.

Can't find bugger all on t'internet about that name so am wondering if I heard
the name right.

@Bellycaster - is this your sax lady - http://www.sarahbolter.co.uk/

John_P

EricTheWeary said:

keyboards can end up adding a big wash of sound that covers everything and everybody else ends up being there just to make up the numbers. In some cases take away the keys and suddenly some quite dodgy timing issues come up for the rest of the band.
Keyboardists also tend to default to padding their way through the chord changes rather than playing parts, so they dictate the sound and the harmony. The guitar equivalent is doing 6 note chord strums on everything. Good keyboardists in almost any genre don't do this but is often the default position of pub band ones. I guess quite often playing on stage how they would play at home - doing the singalong version of everything.
Of course I might just be speaking from bitter experience and its only the ones I've played with who do this...

This is so true and exactly the case here - it's fine though, we're all good mates and I can live with it - I'd almost say the last few years have been a good exercise in finding chord voicings that cut through his wall of over loud, over dense washes of sound...   and I really enjoyed having to rethink what I play to cover the absence of keys...

ICBM

I was once asked by a keyboard chap to put some guitar on an album he was making. The problem was that he'd made full multi-channel keyboard mixes on everything, all the time. There was just no space for the guitar at all, and he didn't like it when I suggested that he should take some of the keyboard parts off... even just for the guitar bits.

I have no idea what the prospective vocalist said either, I wasn't there!

Bellycaster

@Kebabkid

Nice find mate, that's her. I must have misheard the name "Sarah Bolter" for Poulter, like the Golfer. Just got in, so I'll look further into her website at a later time.

Did you know of her already or did you use cunning detective work to find who she was?

Herself and her musicians were fantastic. The Double Bass player made my jaw drop with a solo he did and the notes come out of her so fluently.

Cheers, KK

Kebabkid

No worries @Bellycaster and twas detective work

On the subject of keyboard players, I must've been lucky as I didn't experience any of this. Mind you, for a lot of the functions I played, we didn't have a bassist and the keyboard player took care of that as well as his regular duties. He just provided a lovely wall of sound that was very easy to play against and didn't occupy my frequencies. I had more of an issue with hi hats and cymbals robbing me of my clean, funk sounds!

 

Bellycaster

@Kebabkid

Bloody Drummers :x

RocknRollDave

As an aside, we actually had a keyboard player in our band this week for the very first time - after 4 years of gigging and probably 200+ gigs.

Fortunately, it was ME and for one, specially requested song only. And even then only for the first verse and chorus.

Mind, I got my Grade 3 piano....about 75 years ago