What arpeggio am I playing here?

Bucket

Ok, I've come up with a lick based around a four-string arpeggio, I'll try to transcribe it:

------------------------------7h9h12t14p12p9p7----------------------------------

-------------------------9--------------------------------9-------------------------------

---------------------9----------------------------------------9---------------------------

--------6h9h12------------------------------------------------12p9p6--------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the notes on the D string have a diminished tonality, but then there's a bit of E major too, then an F# at the top... what is it?

Can anyone help? Cheers.

mike_l

G#-B-D  (G#Diminished -R b3 - b5)

E-G#-B (E major R-3-5)

C#-E-F# (C#m R-b3-5)

E-C#-B probably just passing/filling notes.

 

musteatbrain

I would say that's an E9(add13) arpeggio and you are starting on the 3rd. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and then 13th. I'm happy to be schooled though!

Phil_aka_Pip

IMO both analyses have validity. What does it sound like? Bucket is right about the diminished tonality of part of it, but is does it start one way, change, change again, as implied by mike_l, or does it feel like it all adds up to one thing as in musteatbrain's analysis? To my mind, it would be the first if the timing were such as to emphasise the here's one idea, now here's another approach, and the latter if it were a blaze of legato done over 2 beats.

mike_l

I was just thinking out loud as to firstly what notes then what arpeggios were there.

I'm not saying my way is best, just my way of analysing what's happening where.

Bucket

Thanks guys... I wasn't sure, if I'd had to guess I would have said E major 9 with a couple of extra notes, because thinking about it, in the "diminished" part of it on the D string, all but the D natural at the 12th fret fit into E major.

mike_l

D natural is the minor/flat 7 of E, D# falls into E major.

Edit, didn't read Bucket's last comment properly.

Though all fall into Amajor/F#minor....

ThePrettyDamned

I just tried playing this.  

@bucket, how massive are your hands for that first stretch?! I actually can't make it, slow or fast.  I'm thinking of translating the notes into a tapped run across 2 or 3 strings instead, if you don't mind. 

I played it slow and it's got a cool sounding thing, 

Phil_aka_Pip

Bucket said:

Thanks guys... I wasn't sure, if I'd had to guess I would have said E major 9 with a couple of extra notes, because thinking about it, in the "diminished" part of it on the D string, all but the D natural at the 12th fret fit into E major.

The D natural makes the chord dominant, so it means you're looking at the key for which E9 (however modified) is the V chord. As mike says, that is A or F#-

mike_l

The flat 7 doesn't automatically make the chord dominant.

On the V (5) chord it makes it dominant.

Phil_aka_Pip

mike_l said:

The flat 7 doesn't automatically make the chord dominant.

On the V (5) chord it makes it dominant.

not so sir. If (in a major key) I threw a flat 7 into the IV chord it would make that chord dominant in form. If I then progressed it to a major chord whose root is a whole tone lower than the root of the original key it would then become a functional dominant, resolving to a new tonic.

viz

You're both right, it would be a perfect cadence, setting up a modulation to a tone below the original tonic, so effectively being the V of the new key, so long as the new key were being properly established.

musteatbrain

ThePrettyDamned;328945" said:

I just tried playing this.  

@bucket, how massive are your hands for that first stretch?! I actually can't make it, slow or fast.  I'm thinking of translating the notes into a tapped run across 2 or 3 strings instead, if you don't mind. 

I played it slow and it's got a cool sounding thing, 

You can use the 3rd or 4th finger on the second note and slide it up from the 9th to the 12th and then sweep up to the E string if you have stubbies.
It's Bucket's lick though and from what I've seen he has pretty dexterous digits!

mike_l

Phil_aka_Pip said:

mike_l said:

The flat 7 doesn't automatically make the chord dominant.

On the V (5) chord it makes it dominant.

not so sir. If (in a major key) I threw a flat 7 into the IV chord it would make that chord dominant in form. If I then progressed it to a major chord whose root is a whole tone lower than the root of the original key it would then become a functional dominant, resolving to a new tonic.

Thus being the V chord of the new key......

edit - written before I read @viz reply.

mike_l

IE using a simple progression A-D-E transposing into G-C-D, the 4th of A (D) becomes the 5th of G (D).

The D isn't dominant in the A-D-E progression, but is in the G-C-D.

Phil_aka_Pip

D doesn't function as the dominant chord in the key of A. But even in the key of A, if you bung the flat 7th into it, you're playing D7, having the form of a dominant chord, whether or not it is functional. EG (i) the usual blues is a sequence of non-functional dominants (ii) Lindisfarme's All right on the night is in G, but uses C7 as a non-functional dominant for its sleazy feel. I insist, chords can have the dominant form without needing to be functional.

mike_l

Using the flat7 hasn't made the chord dominant, you've just used the dominant shape.

I say again, a flat7 doesn't make the chord dominant.

Simple blues progression A7-D7-E7 all use the flat 7, only the E7 is dominant.

Phil_aka_Pip

mike_l said:

Using the flat7 hasn't made the chord dominant, you've just used the dominant shape.

I say again, a flat7 doesn't make the chord dominant.

Simple blues progression A7-D7-E7 all use the flat 7, only the E7 is dominant.

They're all dominants Mike. You're trying to impose western european diatonic theory in places where it only partially applies. The problem with saying only the E7 is "dominant" is that in the blooze case it doesn't resolve to a tonic, the thing it "resolves" to (loose usage of the word)  is not a "tonic" (tonics don't include a b7). So you don't have the diatonic V-I relationship. Note the difference between being dominant in form (ie having a b7 stacked on top of a major triad) and being dominant in function (ie resolving to a tonic, being a major chord - with optional major 7th, whose root is a perfect fifth lower). Notice also that harmonising the Melodic minor gets you two chords which are dominant in form (on the IV and the V), but staying within the key only the one on the V will function as a dominant.

mike_l

Can someone referee this.

@Clarky or @bigjon please.

bigjon

Eek, well if you put a gun to my head I'd have to say that seeing as I refer to functioning dominant chords, that entails the possibility of non-functioning dominant chords existing in their own right!

musteatbrain

I think bucket may wish he never asked.