I'm getting boring about paint again

TheOtherDennis

After my previous daft question thread, I decided to do it the hard way and bought some nitro from Tone Tech. I ordered the wine red.

Trouble is, it's waaay too light. I wanted it much darker.

Here's what I'm trying to get -
http://www.gak.co.uk/en/fender-standard-stratocaster-2011-midinght-wine-maple/52848

Here's what the paint seems to look like -
http://www.dv247.com/assets/products/36930_l.jpg

Is there any way to darken it (it's from a spray can, not mixed), eg having a darker base/primer colour than the standard white or am I just going to have to shrug and buy another can of a different make?

(It's been a right pain in the arras trying to get the right colour, I'm starting to think I should just do the fucker in black after all, but I'm not giving up just yet...)

Bogwhoppit

I have a can of Nitro strong cherry red that was bought in error you could have a for £10 posted ?

 

 

TheOtherDennis

Thanks for the offer, but it looks like some form of cherry is what I currently have.

What I'll probably do is put some primer on, then use the wine red as a deep base colour then put a coat of some car paint on top, cos there are loads of cars out there with the colour I want, so I'll find something like that instead.

SteveRobinson

Isn't Fender Midnight Wine a deep red metallic colour?

You need to either use a dark red metallic or a deep clear red over silver base coat.

nutbox

That fender looks more brown than red to me.

GuitarMonkey

I wouldn't drink brown wine, even at midnight.

TheOtherDennis

SteveRobinson said:

Isn't Fender Midnight Wine a deep red metallic colour?

You need to either use a dark red metallic or a deep clear red over silver base coat.

Not sure if it's supposed to be metallic or not (it doesn't say in the gak or pmt sales specs, anyway), but what I'm after is a deep maroon. Not purple, but maroon.

I'll see what I get with what I've got, it's too late to send them back now anyway, so I might as well give it a go.

SteveRobinson

Checking the color chart:

http://www.fender.com/support/color-chart/

There are two midnight wines, one metallic and the other transparent, showing the wood grain.

Both are colour code 75!

TheOtherDennis

:-S

Anyway, the paints I've got are closer to the colour they call 'candy cola' which is colour code 12.

The tin of Wine Red from Tone Tech, after spraying on top of some primer (which had been sprayed on top of some sanded down grain filler) came out looking like this -



So I had to go get another can of paint, and as it was the bank holiday and I couldn't be arsed to wait any longer cos I wasn't happy, I just went down to Halfords and bought a tin of something roughly approximating what I was after. It had waaaay more paint in than the supposed proper stuff, and after a couple of coats, it came out looking like this -



The pen in the neck pocket is what I was actually trying to achieve. Anywho, this looks a bit different, so I'm going to sand out a couple of runs and some dust that got picked up and give it a gloss coat or two, leave it a couple of weeks to harden, sand it down, polish it and see what I get.

It's currently way too purple for me, not nearly red enough, but hopefully the gloss coat might make a positive difference to how I feel about it. We'll see, I guess.

10thumbs

Are you putting nitro laquer over car paint ?

Let us know how you get on.

I`ve been wondering about that myself , for a respray I`m doing ( when/ if I ever finish tiling the bathroom).

Corvus

^ it can be done but be careful, celly thinners is fierce. Going easy with the first coats helps so's not to flood solvent on - light dusted coats, leave a few mins between each one. Do a couple of three till there's enough coverage to stand a wet coat without the underlying paint pickling up. But still don't over do it.

For that darker maroon, a black primer or groundcoat would help somewhat, but if you're using Halfords they mix colours to chips/charts which far as I know is actually celly (nitro). Unless things have changed.

TheOtherDennis

Well it's all moot, as it happens.

Having sprayed it a colour I turned out not to be happy with, I put some coats of nitro gloss on it, and left it to cure for a couple of weeks.

But it seems that because I left it hanging in the garage where I did the spraying, it's done this -



It's not just in one place, it's in several large areas around the front and back of the body. And it looks a lot worse in real life than in the photo, too. You can actually see it from a distance - well, about five or six feet away, what I mean is you don't have to be right up close and examining it to spot the cracks in the finish.

Add in some dark spots where I had runs that I obviously didn't sand out properly and a couple of chips that I didn't see before I sprayed the nitro on, and it's the complete opposite of what I was wanting. :-(

I called the guys at Tone Tech where I bought the gloss from, and they said "Sorry, it's take it off and start again time."

Double :-(

So, start again or flip and buy summat else?

SteveRobinson

That's incompatible finishes for you.

The top coat is harder than the acrylic so when the acrylic moves, all the nitrocellulose can do is fracture.

Deadman

Steve's right.

That's a real bummer.

ChrisMusic

@SteveRobinson do you reckon that is part of the reasoning behind the top end ESP Edwards guitars using what they call "Lacquer Taste" finish, which I believe to be nitro over poly ?  I assume that they would have that relic-ed look more quickly, but simpler to finish at the factory, or am I misinterpreting the whole nitro paint cracking thing ?

Oh, and another quick question while you're here, can you supply cans matched to pantone colours, or to tristimulus values from a spectrophotometer ?  And does that work for transparent as well as solid colours ?

Sorry about your finish Dennis, it goes to show that impatience can cost far more in the long run.  Still you may get the chance to do an even better finish with some of the suggestions in this discussion.  At least you know more about paint now.  Good luck.

TheOtherDennis

Thing is though, it wasn't impatience (I left it two full weeks before attempting to sand) and it shouldn't be incompatibility.

The first colour came out almost pink, despite being sold as wine red, so I got some other paint of a darker colour. And they're not supposed to be incompatible, they're supposed to be the same stuff, just different brands. I asked the guys at Tone Tech about their paint (the early coats that came out pink) and they said they got it mixed by a local car paint supplier. So car paint on top of car paint should go, shouldn't it?

Then the nitro on top of that is the stuff that Tone Tech supplies to go on top of the car paint they sell. And before I sprayed the gloss I asked their advice and they said there wouldn't be a problem.

So why would there be incompatibility issues?

They told me today that it was because I left it out in the garage overnight to deal with large swings in temperatures (and there have definitely been those - it's gone from 20 in the day to as low as 7 or 8 at night). They said it can happen to even high quality manufacturer finishes if you leave your guitar in the car on a cold night.

So even though they had the chance to blame Halfords, they didn't take it, so I'm surprised you think it's incompatibility and lack of patience. It's my fault I left it in the garage, sure, can't deny that, though.

Corvus

You have two completely types of paint there, one's 1k acrylic and one is celly aka "nitro". These basically don't get on well without care, hence me saying to mist in stages till coverage is obtained. Only then can you go for a wetter coat. Otherwise a lot of solvent hits the basecoat, a solvent-based paint, which will soften it. Then it can move somewhat, while the celly/nitro is also moving about & settling. Result is crazy-paving.

Better to stick with one type all the way, but care's still needed because with thick builds they can still crack & craze even.
Some differing types of paint can live together, some need will do with certain techniques & provisos.

There's no type called 'car paint', cars can have 1k acrylic, cellulose in the old days, two-pack (poly), waterbase, enamel etc, all very different things.

Regards nitro onto "poly" or 2k, this is a way of getting the benefits of two pack (stability, build, durability) and having a thin celly coat which physically feels nicer (to me anyway), and allows a degree of 'natural' wear & tear which people like.

TheOtherDennis

Ok, thanks, now I understand - I wasn't aware that the Halfords stuff was acrylic, I thought it was nitro too.

Fair enough. So I got it wrong twice.

Hey ho. Fuck ups are my speciality, so add this one to the pile.

Corvus

Far as I know Halfords mixed-to-order at the desk is celly - as told by someone who works there a yr or two ago, not first-hand. But the racked cans are acrylic.

Also car paint shops will sometimes mix up celly/nitro, if they supply it, and might be able to different spray-pattern nozzles - flatter fans are nice for covering larger areas.

Paint's a fiddly PITA, reckon everyone's had a reaction a time or two and had to go back. Not a reaction but couple of weeks back I'd freshly painted one and knocked the bloody thing & damaged it. Being flake & candy there's no option but start over. At least, when the mojo comes back...

SteveRobinson

Also, you can't assume that all nitrocellulose (or acrylic) is the same or compatible. Different formulations will have different properties.

ChrisMusic said:

@SteveRobinson do you reckon that is part of the reasoning behind the top end ESP Edwards guitars using what they call "Lacquer Taste" finish, which I believe to be nitro over poly ?  I assume that they would have that relic-ed look more quickly, but simpler to finish at the factory, or am I misinterpreting the whole nitro paint cracking thing ?

I don't know anything about ESP finishes sorry but generally any polyester base will be very hard indeed.

Oh, and another quick question while you're here, can you supply cans matched to pantone colours, or to tristimulus values from a spectrophotometer ?  And does that work for transparent as well as solid colours ?

Solids colours - yes but not with total accuracy as Pantone colours are for inks; not sure about colorimeter readings but I could ask the colour lab. Transparents - no as there are no standard dyes.

ChrisMusic

ChrisMusic said:   Oh, and another quick question while you're here, can you supply cans matched to pantone colours, or to tristimulus values from a spectrophotometer ?  And does that work for transparent as well as solid colours ?

SteveRobinson said:   Solids colours - yes but not with total accuracy as Pantone colours are for inks; not sure about colorimeter readings but I could ask the colour lab. Transparents - no as there are no standard dyes.

Thanks @SteveRobinson I would appreciate that.

As to transparents: can they not be mixed and behave in a similar way ?  I realise the end result will be dependant on the density and the base they are applied to.  Maybe you could give a brief explanation of how to use and specify transparent colours please ?  Cheers.