40 wats not loud enough ?

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BarneyBarney Frets: 614
We must be a loud band ....just done a booking with the redplate cds2 and although the tone was great I found myself struggling a bit for volume...bear in mind our drummer mics up...just wondering iff any body uses 2 amp setups...I have a hotrod deluxe that I could use for a bit more volume..
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    Your going down the wrong path Barney, don't fight volume with volume get some ears sorted
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    Danny1969;331284" said:
    Your going down the wrong path Barney, don't fight volume with volume get some ears sorted
    Sorry ..I dont understand what you mean :)
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  • In ear monitors I suspect.
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited August 2014

    A few thoughts that might help:

    • Using an EQ or a clean booster pedal (I use the BBE Bosta Grand) could be an economic solution that can make all the difference - plus an EQ will give you more 'tone shaping' control not available from your amp directly.  Either should give you (typically) up to a 15db boost.  When you consider that the volume increase from a 50w amp to a 100w amp (assuming same speaker) is only about 3dB, that's a lot of extra volume!  You might find that best results are in the FX loop.  
    • Another approach to increasing volume in pure backline is to change the speaker to one with higher sensitivity.  To put this in persepective - if you had two identical amps with the same 97dB speaker, but one amp was 50w and the other 100w, and you put a 101 db speaker in the 50w, it would be at least as loud if not louder than the 100w amp!          
    •  Also, the thought occurs - if your drummer is miking up, is there any reason you can't do the same?  Jimmy Page was well known for miking up smaller amps and making them sound huge! 
    • If your amp has the facility to add one, an extension cab is another solution to consider because more air being moved gives you a fuller louder sound which you can spread better by placing the amp/cab a little apart.
    • Sometimes it's not so much volume that's needed as greater definition to cut through the mix.  I would urge you to try out a BBE Sonic Stomp Maximiser (there are various demos on you-tube).  This works differently to an EQ, and essentially helps your speakers to process higher and lower frequencies more efficiently to give a clearer, punchier tone.  It's like taking a blanket off your amp that you never knew you had!  
    • Finally, and sorry for stating obvious stuff that you probably know all about anyway, amp positioning is very important too ie raising it off the floor at a slight angle etc to project sound better. And if your drummer really is that loud, does he genuinely need to be or is a simple solution just to turn him down a notch or two! lol

          

     


    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31369
    The drummer micing up shouldn't make any difference to you, unless you have him in your monitors, and if so, why? :)
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26463
    edited August 2014
    Your drummer shouldn't be increasing his overall volume by using mics - it should be more for reinforcement. If he's so loud that he's drowning the rest of the band, then whoever's on the desk needs to sort their shit out.

    For me, if there are active mics on anything other than the snare and kick, then everybody needs to be going through the PA otherwise the cymbals (and probably toms) are going to swamp everything else. If he doesn't have mics on the cymbals, then he needs quieter cymbals :)
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  • BogwhoppitBogwhoppit Frets: 2754
    edited August 2014
    Just shoot the drummer... sorted.


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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    Your drummer shouldn't be increasing his overall volume by using mics - it should be more for reinforcement. If he's so loud that he's drowning the rest of the band, then whoever's on the desk needs to sort their shit out.

    For me, if there are active mics on anything other than the snare and kick, then everybody needs to be going through the PA otherwise the cymbals are going to swamp everything else. If he doesn't have mics on the cymbals, then he needs quieter cymbals :)
    ....Big +1!
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • AdjiAdji Frets: 142
    tFB Trader
    Not sure on the size of the venues etc but I have done some pretty big venues (mainly the Butlins type of places), few years ago I did  New Year's eve gig, it was one of the biggest with over 2000 people there. Big stage and a HUGE room, literally massive.I had a H&K Statesman Quad EL84 which puts out around 40 watts. I had it on 4-5 on the master volume. Everyone / everything was mic'd up and through a PA. 40 watts should be more than loud enough if you are mic'd up imo (unless the sort of gig you are doing are huge outdoor ones, I don't have any experience with that).

    If the drummer is mic'd, you should all be mic'd imo.

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  • BlueingreenBlueingreen Frets: 2582
    edited August 2014
    I've had a very long lay-off from playing guitar (rather than bass) in bands but getting back to it now (not gigging yet but rehearsing with a band that's not far away).  I used to play through a 65 watt 1 x 15" combo and it was generally considered a small amp when people were using stacks, half-stacks and Fender twins. It wasn't unusual for me to be miked up even in situations where the rest of the band weren't (one mike on the bass drum and one in front of the guitar combo was quite usual).

    It seems to be an entirely different game now with lots of folk gigging small combos.  I still have some difficulty getting my head round the idea that a 20 watt combo is considered a giggable amp and 40 watts is considered loud.  
    “To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26463
    Probably worth mentioning at this point that my JCA50H currently puts out 42W clean (the current valves are slightly under-powered), and I've never found a gig where it wasn't loud enough, even with horrifically over-enthusiastic drummers.
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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 4159
    Finding a drummer that actually realises that you don't hit drums like your life depends on it all the time is a tough job. I'd be inclined to ask the drummer to get a few lessons ;) and get personal monitors .

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  • BlueingreenBlueingreen Frets: 2582
    Yeah my personal bugbear is drummers that are incredibly loud AND get miked up.  They have humungous volume and then the sound guys need to add enough to the acoustic noise to be able to shape the drum sound.  The end result is a deafening on-stage drum volume that everyone else needs to hear themselves over. Since I've nearly always played in big bands (keys, horns, multiple vocs) etc the on-stage volume is often totally cacophonous with everyone jostling to be a bit louder just to hear themselves.

    I see plenty of advice of the "just tell the drummer to cool it" variety but when good drummers are in very short supply, often convinced they NEED to be loud to sound their best and touchy about the subject of how loud they actually are I've never found it that easy.
    “To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    Thanks Guys ...some great advice here..got to say though the drummer dosnt use the PA for volume ..just clarity and sound ..
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2744
    Barney said:
    Thanks Guys ...some great advice here..got to say though the drummer dosnt use the PA for volume ..just clarity and sound ..
    Without knowing the details of your band and how you gig, it stikes me as a little unusual for the drums to be mic'ed and not the backline...    I'm assuming you the volume you need is for the out front sound - so if the PA is good enough to handle the kit then adding a little from the guitars would solve the problem of being heard in the mix and you just have to worry about whether you and the rest of the and can hear your amp.  40w should be fine but careful positioning of the amp might help.
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  • BlueingreenBlueingreen Frets: 2582
    Yes but if he's using it for sound you need volume.  

    To alter the drum sound heard by the audience you need enough PA drum sound for it to modify the (or even substantially replace) the acoustic sound of the drums.  So you're going to get the full acoustic sound of the drummer plus whatever uplift in volume is needed to modify the tone.
    “To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
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  • CatthanCatthan Frets: 355
    @Barney, you had problems with the stage sound I presume as you were probably mic'd too for the FOH?
    Or was the drummer so loud that drowned you in the FOH? If the latter then whoever set up the FOH sound did it wrong.
    Your amp is a combo right? Was it high enough to point anywhere towards your ears? 
    Also. Am I right you were one of those who did the Jazz improv coursera course and you went with a Metheny-type smooth sound? If yes and if that's the same sound you went for it may be that you lacked high mids. nowt wrong with 40W.
    I've played a large hall in the Baltic in Ncl with the LSS 30w with volume set at 11:00 and a very low mic out to the FOH and it was fine but I had the cab tilted towards my ears.

    Our loud but awesome drummer uses a bum chum monitoring system  through which his kick drum and a DI out from the bass amp vibrate up his ass and that eliminates loading the stage with bassy sounds for him to be able to listen. Also helps his groove when he needs to play so smoothly that he can't hear his 1 on the kick.
    Must be a loud stage if you need additional monitoring. Where I usually play I always argue with the soundman when he asks me to drop volume down to the point I can't hear me and have guitar back to me through the monitors. Can I not set the amp where I think it's right and have him turn me down a bit at the FOH? It's a 90W boogie, it doesn't need mic'ing up most of the times anyway.
    ear plugs eliminate fizzles from cymbals but will eat some of your high mids away too so be careful
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  • BlueingreenBlueingreen Frets: 2582
    Also to agree with John P a full drum mike-up and no back-line mike up does sound odd.  I used to see just a mike on the bass-drum a lot but if the full kit's being miked I'd expect the back line to be through the PA as well.  
    “To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    edited August 2014



    Catthan said:
    @Barney, you had problems with the stage sound I presume as you were probably mic'd too for the FOH?
    Or was the drummer so loud that drowned you in the FOH? If the latter then whoever set up the FOH sound did it wrong.
    Your amp is a combo right? Was it high enough to point anywhere towards your ears? 
    Also. Am I right you were one of those who did the Jazz improv coursera course and you went with a Metheny-type smooth sound? If yes and if that's the same sound you went for it may be that you lacked high mids. nowt wrong with 40W.
    I've played a large hall in the Baltic in Ncl with the LSS 30w with volume set at 11:00 and a very low mic out to the FOH and it was fine but I had the cab tilted towards my ears.

    Our loud but awesome drummer uses a bum chum monitoring system  through which his kick drum and a DI out from the bass amp vibrate up his ass and that eliminates loading the stage with bassy sounds for him to be able to listen. Also helps his groove when he needs to play so smoothly that he can't hear his 1 on the kick.
    Must be a loud stage if you need additional monitoring. Where I usually play I always argue with the soundman when he asks me to drop volume down to the point I can't hear me and have guitar back to me through the monitors. Can I not set the amp where I think it's right and have him turn me down a bit at the FOH? It's a 90W boogie, it doesn't need mic'ing up most of the times anyway.
    ear plugs eliminate fizzles from cymbals but will eat some of your high mids away too so be careful

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