Anyone know about Tokai's... Help needed!

Duppy03

I'd love a Gibson Les Paul Junior VOS Double cut... However the chances of finding one, then being able to afford it are slim to none.

So a good friend informed me that he had an 80's Tokai Love Rock Les Paul Jr that he thought was up there with Gibson Custom Shop stuff. So the search began....

But there seems to be numerous variations using similar names, from the 80's up to present. Some made in Japan, some made in Korea (I think). So does anyone know how I can identify one of the 80's Love Rock (lawSuit?) versions? And how much might I be looking to pay?

Cheers!

sunshinewelly

http://www.tokaiforum.com/

look here for some great tokia advice

benecol

I've had one, and they're ever-so good, but they're definitely one of the harder to find Tokais. And I've never seen an 80s one. That said, while the fully-appointed LPs themselves were maybe stronger/better around the turn of 1980, a lot of that lawsuit lark is snake oil (for instance: there never actually was a lawsuit). Stick a saved search on eBay. Beware the Korean ones (three trussrod screws) as they're not a patch on the Japanese ones (two trussrod cover screws).

They've never stayed a production model for very long (I almost bought one new in 2005, just as they were phasing them out, then regretted not getting it for years), but they did seem to be making them again last year (as Tokai Reborns - quite expensive). My advise would be to keep an eye out for Edwards juniors as well - just as good, with a nitro finish and SD pickup.

Shout if I can be any more help.

Dave_Mc

the easy way to differentiate quickly the MIK (or MIC) stuff from the MIJ is that the MIJ has 2-screw truss rod covers (and the newer ones normally say "Made in Japan" on the back of the headstock, though the ones you're looking at probably don't) while the others use 3 screws.

However, a determined scammer would (presumably) find it pretty easy to fit a 2-screw truss rod cover to an MIK or MIC, so it's not exactly foolproof either.

+1 on what sunshinewelly said, basically.

daveww

+1 on the previous comments.  I think there are quite a few knowledgeable Tokai forum escapees on here (inc' me).  I've owned a number of early 80s tokais and agree all the ones I've played are great guitars.  The serial numbers and models are fairly easy to identify.  Tokais are so good that the early 80s one's in particular command high prices nowadays.  There are some other great MIJ brands as well and due to price etc. I largely go for Bacchus Vintage Series these days.  If you find a nice guitar and want to post details or pm I'm happy to help if I can.  

sunshinewelly

just to say i bought a recent LS160 love rock (same specs as a R8 Gibson Historic) and its an amazing playing guitar. I was not overly impressed though with the pickups and put a pair of slash anico pro 2 pups in it and now its sensational

Duppy03

Thanks for the help guys.

ChrisMusic

Good advice so far, and Tokai's are great guitars.

The LPJ DC ones seem to be harder to find and the asking prices are disproportionately high, but they are around.

Manufacture of Tokai's is MIJ as you know, and are really well made great playing guitars.  Also MIK and more lately MIC.  These are cheaper ranges, supplementing the top end MIJ series.  There are also Fakei's around, from the ones ordered from a Korean company when the Canadian distributor allegedly could not get stock from Tokai, through to the usual fakes, it's not just Chibsons out there.  That certainly applies to the single cuts, I'm not sure if there are fakes of the DCs out there.

As has been mentioned already, MIJ have two screw truss rod covers (the lower screw(s) are often missing in pics in dubious adverts), "Made in Japan" printed on the neck end of the back of the headstock on more recent examples, the others should also have "Made in China" or "Made in Korea" printed on them.  The MIJ ones AFAIK have serial numbers which the cheaper ones do not, and you can date them from the first two digits.  (there is a favourite year used by some fakers, but I can't remember what it is)  Check the Tokai forum for further info on the 1970s and early 80s as I believe some of them had inked serials.

The bridge on MIJ guitars is similar to the Gibson with two small rounded bridge posts showing from the front face of the guitar, whereas the MIK & MIC ones have a larger hole in the bridge with larger slotted head posts like you would find on an Epiphone or other guitars from those countries.  This is one of the easiest tells for the country of origin, *most* fakes seem to get this wrong.

Headstocks: UK Tokai stock headstocks have a "nipple" in the centre of a more splayed open book shape certainly from about 2003 and maybe before, whereas it seems that European stock and certainly those for domestic Japanese consumption have the traditional Gibson design.  I am not sure about US stock.  It is also worth learning how the script fits on the headstock, as the fakes often get this wrong too.

The nut used on MIJ is more Gibson shaped and different from those used on MIC & MIK which are chunkier with a flatter top

There is more, such as colours of the plastics etc, but they are often changed as a guitar ages anyway.

Another Tokai MIJ speciality is the pickup routes have a distinctive rounded square shape for the hum bucker legs on MIJ guitars from the original machinery used in manufacture.

A dangerous place to visit - GAS warning - but Ishibashi have a good reputation, and abundant Japanese stock (with the "correct" headstock) ensures competitive pricing, even landed cost with shipping and approx 24% VAT and duty added.

http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/eng/

markslade07

ChrisMusic said:

http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/eng/

Must. Not. Look.

equalsql

sunshinewelly said:

just to say i bought a recent LS160 love rock (same specs as a R8 Gibson Historic) and its an amazing playing guitar. I was not overly impressed though with the pickups and put a pair of slash anico pro 2 pups in it and now its sensational

  Same here, bought one just after @sunshinewelly got his. I played many LPs and own a 79 Deluxe Pro, but the LS160 is in a different league altogether.  Probably the best Lester I've ever played  (and I got it from Ishibashi).

ChrisMusic

ChrisMusic said:   http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/eng/

markslade07 said:   Must. Not. Look.

If those yen prices look too scary,   (what sort of currency is that at a gazillion to the pound  :-O  )

Then try typing "100000 yen to pounds" or whatever, into the search box in Google, it gives you a nice interactive conversion box and a graph of currency performance too.

  50,000 ¥ is about £290

100,000 ¥ is about £580

So not that scary after all.  (unless you live in a deflationary economy)

Oh, and yes, @markslade07 is right - do not look, put the computer down right now, and slowly walk away...

Duppy03

I couldn't resist. Jus t been browsing, some nice looking guitars on there, but how do I go about just searching for Tokai's?

Duppy03

So is the consensus that modern made Japanese Tokais are as good as those made in the 80's?

ChrisMusic

http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/eng/  >  Used Gear and type Tokai into the keyword box on the left, I don't know if that finds everything they have though.  Not that many Tokais on there right now it seems.

BTW the prices in red are inclusive of Japans 5% tax, which you don't pay , the price you pay is in brackets in black underneath.

Duppy03

@ChrisMusic oaky cheers. No Les Paul Junior Double Cuts as present.

Dave_Mc

ChrisMusic said:

As has been mentioned already, MIJ have two screw truss rod covers (the lower screw(s) are often missing in pics in dubious adverts)

Good point ) Yeah any time I can't see what would easily let me identify something I get suspicious.

ChrisMusic

I couldn't see any either right now, but it is an eye opener going through their stock.  Several people on here have bought from them, so they have a good reputation for looking after you.

There are other Japanese dealers and people who specialise in finding guitars and shipping them over.  Well worth a trawl round that there inter-web.

The good thing about Japan is that stuff is comparatively cheap, exchange rates are not bad, and there are loads of Japanese guitars in Japan (surprise, that !) so there is an oversupply rather than rarity, which keeps prices down too.

ThorpyFX

Ive had a tokai ls-200 ls-85 and a tokai sg. All Japanese made, all epic and all of them beat the gibson equivalent hands down. When I had the ls-200 I also owned a gibson 59vos, the tokai (with bareknuckle mules) beat it hands down. I cannot fault them and highly recommend.

Forge

They are absolutely excellent guitars as many members commented. The LP DC are particularly good once you put a great P90 in there, I installed an Antiquity with superb results.

usedtobe

There was a guy playing a Jap Tokai SG Jnr, at a local jam night, on wednesday. Sounded bloody amazing. Mind you, he said he's swapped the pickup for something from BKP. Still.. Made me think...

benecol

I used to have one of those, too, and it was ace.