How much would you pay for an "Made in China" guitar.

ICBM

Trading with them, and allowing them to become richer and more Westernised, will eventually mean that they start to share our lifestyles, low population growth (by choice not Communist Party edict) and values. It's not a quick fix and there is likely to be some friction along the way, but isn't that better than trying to isolate and punish them for wanting what we have?

It isn't the British Empire's fault, no - although we did set the pattern for this sort of thing when we built it. Cheap British manufacturing destroyed the economies of many more traditional cultures, including China's… even if we hadn't gone to war to make them allow our drug dealers to operate. But that's all in the past and we need to think about the future.

Drew_TNBD

ADP said:

I don't think anyone has addressed the question of whether we should buy anything from China, so I will. In my opinion we should never have dealt with China. Big business has been far too happy to exploit the low wages in China to sell cheaper goods, be more competitive and make bigger profits to keep their shareholders happy. In the meantime, our own industry and local jobs have been sacrificed. What's the new economic model to follow? Oppress your people, keep them them poor and uneducated, encourage massive population growth, create nothing and wait for rich western countries to come and give you all their secrets, manufacturing and money. It stinks. I know the theory is that one day the Chinese will want to buy goods made in the west, but here's the thing: they will always buy goods made in China first and I'm sorry to say that there's precious little made anywhere else nowadays. I wish my phone wasn't made in China. I would gladly pay more and have fewer possessions to have nothing made in China. So to answer the original question... What would I pay for a guitar made in China? Not a penny.

You want prejudice and xenophobia. Here you go!

usedtobe

Drew_fx said:

richardhomer said:

^ Yet we pay through the nose for Apple products - which are made in China.

Cult of personality, herd mentality, and mass conformity.

I like the way Apple computers work - I find them easier - more intuitive to use, as opposed to a PC. I run a pre-intel G5, and don't have an ipad, or iphone. I know people who've got into Apple stuff, and now can't imagine using anything else - because it just works for them. I'm sure there are people who fit your description, though..

strtdv

I guess it's partly prejudice and partly the expectation that lower end guitars tend to be made in China.

Eastman seem to be an exception to this, where you get a beautiful quality luthier made instrument which is still expensive but a lot less than anything comparable made in the USA.

If Chinese guitars were all made to that standard I would have no problem paying almost as much as for an American or Japanese made guitar.
For most of the stuff they make though it's made to the budget end of the market and I wouldn't pay anything for it.

xmrchi

Drew_fx said:

ADP said:

I don't think anyone has addressed the question of whether we should buy anything from China, so I will. In my opinion we should never have dealt with China. Big business has been far too happy to exploit the low wages in China to sell cheaper goods, be more competitive and make bigger profits to keep their shareholders happy. In the meantime, our own industry and local jobs have been sacrificed. What's the new economic model to follow? Oppress your people, keep them them poor and uneducated, encourage massive population growth, create nothing and wait for rich western countries to come and give you all their secrets, manufacturing and money. It stinks. I know the theory is that one day the Chinese will want to buy goods made in the west, but here's the thing: they will always buy goods made in China first and I'm sorry to say that there's precious little made anywhere else nowadays. I wish my phone wasn't made in China. I would gladly pay more and have fewer possessions to have nothing made in China. So to answer the original question... What would I pay for a guitar made in China? Not a penny.

You want prejudice and xenophobia. Here you go!

No prejudice or Xenophobia there, I think you need to read it again and point out any prejudice as although its not a pleasant read it does resemble the truth about how the Chinese treat their own, with v low wages, etc, do we need to even delve into their appalling human rights to prove this point??

Dave_Mc

monquixote said:

I think the answer is less than a Rasmus cost. 

They were superb guitars made to an extremely high standard, but because they were made in China and relatively expensive no one would buy them.

As @ICBM mentioned I'm typing this post on a MIC laptop that didn't provide much change out of £2K so I think it's fair to say they can produce some decent stuff when they want to.

Yeah. I think I read on another forum (and it may well be internet BS, so obviously take this with a pinch of salt) that Suhr also stopped them because they had to dump so many of them. They checked them themselves before they were sent out to shops, and the ones which were sent out to shops were great (allegedly- I haven't tried them), but to get to that number they had to bin an awful lot more )

richardhomer said:

I was convinced Suhr would struggle with these when they were launched.

Same here. And the people who said this were poo-poohed as "naysayers", "haters" or whatever.

Granted, there's more than a little "self-fulfilling prophecy" in it, but still. Rasmus is no more, so who was right?

Drew_fx said:

To me it would be down to how much I think it cost to make, and how much profit I think the shop and manufacturer are making. I like to try to make an informed decision.

How much do you think your average guitar in China costs to make?

I have to stress, I disagree completely with Richard. I really don't think it's anything to do with prejudice. I think it's because we've all been told that for decades China has been producing instruments and other gear really cheaply (price-wise, not quality-wise) and so we, as clever consumer capitalists... we expect to benefit from that.

I know I do anyway.

Agreed 100%. I don't think it's fair to play the racist card- that's not to say some people aren't racist, but not everyone is.

Only three of my guitars are USA-made- the vast majority aren't. It's certainly not racism at play on my part, but in my opinion what something costs to buy should at least bear some relation to what it costs to make. If it costs less to make, that saving should be passed on. It's not "prejudice" to say I'm not paying the same price for something which costs far less to make, it's (IMO) common sense. Or if it's not passed on to me, at least pass it on to the worker in China.

57Deluxe said:

/\ why?? cos the bloody EU dictate it...

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee301/snotmale/Webhosting/importnotice_zpsc7dfd2af.jpg

The EU has a minimum VAT level of 15%. Ours is 20%. You can say thank you to George Osborne for that.

richardhomer

Dave_Mc;345319" said:

Agreed 100%. I don't think it's fair to play the racist card- that's not to say some people aren't racist, but not everyone is.

I don't think anyone in this thread has accused anyone of racism....

Just incase anyone took my use of the word 'prejudice' to mean 'racism' that was not the case. I meant it in its literal sense - judging something without a fair trial.

I'm not sure why Drew disagrees so vehemently with my posts on this - we are both saying the same thing; people 'expect' a Chinese guitar to be cheap.

My contention is that the same was true of Japanese guitars, until they 'came of age' and started selling to professional players at prices rivalling USA instruments.

I used Apple to demonstrate that outside of instruments, consumers in other markets don't necessarily equate Chinese manufacture with cheapness.

If the Chinese people are to really benefit from international trade, their pay will have to rise - and that will only be possible when people are prepared to pay more for the things they make....

randomhandclaps

What a bunch of racists.

ADP

It's very easy to play the non-racist, fair trade, global economy, world-as-a-village card and sit in judgement on others.

It is ironic, though, to see the words "without a fair trial" applied to argument in defence of China. Here are a few words you might want to type into Google some time when you're free:

Tiananmen Square. Tibet, pollution, endangered species, human rights, wages, working conditions, protectionism, corruption, state subsidised industry, copyright, piracy, state-sponsored espionage, hacking, artificially undervalued currency, import taxes...

If wages rise in China (or if their currency is finally properly valued or state subsidies are withdrawn), goods from there will cost as much as they would if they were made in the west. At that point most Western buyers will probably choose to buy locally, and companies will prefer to have their manufacturing done closer to hand. At that point the Chinese economy will start to slip into recession. Perhaps we should apply the same import duties they do. It only seems fair.

The past decade has also shown us what impact the Chinese boom has had on us on a local level. The prices of building materials, raw materials and foodstuffs and more are all much higher than they would normally be due to the demand for these in China. And when the Chinese all reach a level where they want to eat meat every day like we do in the west, the world will struggle to supply it, and we will have to pay much more for our weekly shop.

My problem is not with the Chinese people. I do have a problem with the fact that they allowed themselves to be oppressed by emperors for centuries only to allow the communist party to continue the same legacy under a new guise in the last century, but that accusation could be levelled at most countries. My issues are all with the government that oppresses them and latterly has come to dictate to the west. I also despise the faceless nobodies who run big business and have influenced our own government's policies by encouraging them to trade with a corrupt regime in their pursuit of money. Is that prejudiced, racist, ignorant or xenophobic? Maybe you can find a suitable epithet.

Here's just one reason I am suspicious of dealings with China. In a previous job some of my colleagues were in touch with a family in China through work. At the time of Tiananmen Square they had to use their contacts in the west to get their daughter out of the country because she had been involved in the student protests. A friend of hers was killed. Her parents received a bill for the bullet that killed her.

Call me prejudiced all you like. Call me a xenophobe. Better still, call me a Sinophobe. I would prefer to buy a guitar made where it was developed - in Europe or North America but I'm more than happy to buy a Japanese guitar and have owned a few. I even have a Korean-made guitar.

I just don't want to buy the world a Coke, hold hands and sing happy songs while the world falls down around us. That may not be cool, but well...

richardhomer

^ 'Fair trial' of the notional guitar we are evaluating - not the country....

Either you have not read my comments properly, failed to understand them or seek trouble where there isn't any....

ADP

My apologies. I thought it was you who called me prejudiced and xenophobic. Mind you, thanks for the reasoned retort.

richardhomer

^
'Wow' awarded for all the wrong reasons. I haven't called you anything....

ADP

Hence the apologies...

Alnico

Can I just say that this DOESN'T need moving to Speakers Corner.

Thank you.

mudslide73

We should expect the lower manufacturing costs to be passed on to us. We shouldn't be paying £900 for something that costs £40 to make.

GuitarMonkey

mudslide73 said:

We should expect the lower manufacturing costs to be passed on to us. We shouldn't be paying £900 for something that costs £40 to make.

Why not? You should pay what it's worth, no manufacturer works on a cost plus basis.

If it's not worth £900 don't buy it.

streethawk

Working on a Korean made Guild Manhattan, what a beauty!

Everything is spot on. Binding, finish, fretwork etc.

Searching online it seems that quality is solid across the board and that's not surprising considering the Koreans have been knocking out top notch hollowbodys for a while now. I think that's the next step for emerging factories - consistency.

700 quid online. I'd be reasonably confident that I wouldn't receive a lemon. 

Dave_Mc

richardhomer said:

Dave_Mc;345319" said:

Agreed 100%. I don't think it's fair to play the racist card- that's not to say some people aren't racist, but not everyone is.

(a) I don't think anyone in this thread has accused anyone of racism....

Just incase anyone took my use of the word 'prejudice' to mean 'racism' that was not the case. I meant it in its literal sense - judging something without a fair trial.

(b) I'm not sure why Drew disagrees so vehemently with my posts on this - we are both saying the same thing; people 'expect' a Chinese guitar to be cheap.

My contention is that the same was true of Japanese guitars, until they 'came of age' and started selling to professional players at prices rivalling USA instruments.

(c) I used Apple to demonstrate that outside of instruments, consumers in other markets don't necessarily equate Chinese manufacture with cheapness.

If the Chinese people are to really benefit from international trade, their pay will have to rise - and that will only be possible when people are prepared to pay more for the things they make....

(a) Ah no worries, sorry for jumping the gun there )

I don't think I am judging the stuff without a fair trial- I'm saying if the pay is lower the price should be too. I never said MIC was necessarily bad. Granted, if you're not careful you're sort of into circular logic there if you're not careful (as you implied in your last sentence in (c)).

(b) Agreed. I'm well aware of the Japanese thing.

(c) Absolutely. But using a slightly different example- I'm sure we've all seen name-brand t-shirts which were (probably) made in sweatshops selling for more than shirts made in the West are sold for. So that said name brand can afford to hire expensive celebrities/sports stars to advertise its products, so it can pay its managers etc. more, so it can give bigger dividends to its shareholders, etc. etc.

I guess what I'm saying is, being prepared to pay more for something which is MIC is no guarantee that that extra money will go to the workers. Which is why I think it's important to bear in mind what I'm saying, too i.e. if it costs less to make, those extra savings should either (ideally) be passed on to the workers making the thing (who are on lower wages than they probably should be) or, if not, passed on to the consumer who buys the product.

Drew_TNBD

Dave_Mc said:

I guess what I'm saying is, being prepared to pay more for something which is MIC is no guarantee that that extra money will go to the workers. Which is why I think it's important to bear in mind what I'm saying, too i.e. if it costs less to make, those extra savings should either (ideally) be passed on to the workers making the thing (who are on lower wages than they probably should be) or, if not, passed on to the consumer who buys the product.

Yes, this.

All other concerns aside, I do consider it to be xenophobic to say you wouldn't pay a penny for a Chinese made guitar because it was made in China. You can try and use economic progress as a stick to beat logic-with-a-squint into your position all you want, but I'm not buying it. Bringing up Tiananmen Square and Tibet is pretty telling too, since they have precisely the square root of fuck all to do with guitar manufacturing.

*shrug*

ToneControl

I recently read "The undercover economist", which covers the pros and cons of "sweatshops" and "cheap labour"

Better to read it for yourself, but basically unrestricted international trade tends to improve poor countries - and people never work for low wages unless they were working for lower still wages before. Quality of life in China has increased massively.

I don't see the logic of simply boycotting countries that have a less than ideal human rights record. The situation is too complex, and it's not an effective tool when much of what we use will carry on coming from China anyway. It's not so long since most of Europe were treating their citizens a lot worse than China, there are plenty of worse places to live at present