PAT testing and Public liability

hotpickups

To those who are regularly on the corporate gig market do you guys really bother with PAT testing and fork out for Public Liability insurance? Is it generally insisted upon by the venues you play at etc?

MikkiMcMurderer

Yes unfortunatley - PLI is worth having to cover your arse but PAT is a farcical system.

jpfamps

Yes to both, although I do the band's PAT.

hotpickups

jpfamps said:

Yes to both, although I do the band's PAT.

Ok. What would you say is a rough estimate for a 6 piece band for PAT testing?

On top of my head it's for:-

2 x guitar amps

4 x Mackie powered speakers

2x Mackie mixer

2 x extension reels

2 x 4 gang plug bar

1 x keyboard

4 mics

Phil_aka_Pip

last I heard it was about £3 per item

hotpickups

Phil_aka_Pip said:

last I heard it was about £3 per item

Are mics included in PAT testing?

Phil_aka_Pip

hotpickups said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

last I heard it was about £3 per item

Are mics included in PAT testing?

no. AFAIK (ICBM will correct me if I'm wrong) PAT is only about the safety of mains powered equipment. It includes a visual check on the state of power leads & plugs, and a resistance test between the equipment's chassis and the earth pin of its mains plug. If there is more than half an ohm, the test fails, so the tester then presses the button that tells the test gear that the mains lead is more than 3 metres long, which allows it to be not quite so pernickety. the test then passes, you get your sticky labels, and then hand over your cash. job done

EDIT PLI is thrown in with MU membership. If you're in the corporate gig market you should be MU members.

hotpickups

Phil_aka_Pip said:

hotpickups said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

last I heard it was about £3 per item

Are mics included in PAT testing?

no. AFAIK (ICBM will correct me if I'm wrong) PAT is only about the safety of mains powered equipment. It includes a visual check on the state of power leads & plugs, and a resistance test between the equipment's chassis and the earth pin of its mains plug. If there is more than half an ohm, the test fails, so the tester then presses the button that tells the test gear that the mains lead is more than 3 metres long, which allows it to be not quite so pernickety. the test then passes, you get your sticky labels, and then hand over your cash. job done

EDIT PLI is thrown in with MU membership. If you're in the corporate gig market you should be MU members.

Blimey the bill keeps getting longer and longer. I've only gone into the market because pubs are paying so badly etc. I'm just checking out how much is MU membership ? I take it's a band payment not individuals?

maltingsaudio

Yes to both

PAT or Portable Appliance Test is a test of electrical safety for portable equipment. How they define portable is a mystery to me as a 60 kilo active sub doesn't really qualify as portable yet has to be tested.Any way the general rule of thumb is anything which uses an electrical supply of 240 volts to work, needs to have a valid sticker on it to say it has been tested on such and such a day within the last  12 months and is safe to use. So its a bit like a car MOT really for electrics in that there is no guarantee that three days after its test something has failed and its unsafe. For us guitarists the grey area is that f you have an effects thingy for example which runs off a wall wart the wall wart needs a sticker the thingy doesn't.

Bottom line is if your employer/booker insists you have valid PAT certs for everything get it done. I would advocate get it done anyway along with regular monthly checks by yourself that anything you plug into the mains is safe  

hotpickups

maltingsaudio said:

Yes to both

PAT or Portable Appliance Test is a test of electrical safety for portable equipment. How they define portable is a mystery to me as a 60 kilo active sub doesn't really qualify as portable yet has to be tested.Any way the general rule of thumb is anything which uses an electrical supply of 240 volts to work, needs to have a valid sticker on it to say it has been tested on such and such a day within the last  12 months and is safe to use. So its a bit like a car MOT really for electrics in that there is no guarantee that three days after its test something has failed and its unsafe. For us guitarists the grey area is that f you have an effects thingy for example which runs off a wall wart the wall wart needs a sticker the thingy doesn't.

Bottom line is if your employer/booker insists you have valid PAT certs for everything get it done. I would advocate get it done anyway along with regular monthly checks by yourself that anything you plug into the mains is safe  

Ah well that's good news then that I don't have to test my pedals only my power supply. Phew!

hotpickups

I'm not sure what being an MU member would benefit me except for the included Public Liability Insurance. Whats the deal guys?

not_the_dj

You can get Public Liability cover with gear insurance. It's been discussed a few times here.

Have a read of this: http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/191558/#Comment_191558

Especially fretmeister's posts.

hotpickups

not_the_dj said:

You can get Public Liability cover with gear insurance. It's been discussed a few times here.

Have a read of this: http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/191558/#Comment_191558

Especially fretmeister's posts.

Wow these insurances companies have all got it sewn up into scare us into buying policies haven't they?

hotpickups

not_the_dj said:

You can get Public Liability cover with gear insurance. It's been discussed a few times here.

Have a read of this: http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/191558/#Comment_191558

Especially fretmeister's posts.

The 2K mentioned from MU to cover gear wouldn't cover mine considering I own the PA and my kit on top of that

jpfamps

This amused me on a piece of kit I had into repair:

http://jpfamps.com/portable-appliance-testing-pat-zealotry

John_P

You want to know your gear is safe so get it PAT tested - at a couple of quid or so per item it's no big deal compared to your gig earnings.   It's no guarrantee in the same way your car mot only says at the time of testing it was ok, but it's a decent minimum as well as the regular checks you would be doing anyway. 

Similarly for PLI - the outlay is a very good investment compared to the risks should something happen that you find yourslef liable for. 

If you're sensible with your gear, maintain it and apply some common sense you probably would never need these things but I think it's worth having just in case...

spark240

maltingsaudio said:

Yes to both

PAT or Portable Appliance Test is a test of electrical safety for portable equipment. How they define portable is a mystery to me as a 60 kilo active sub doesn't really qualify as portable yet has to be tested.Any way the general rule of thumb is anything which uses an electrical supply of 240 volts to work, needs to have a valid sticker on it to say it has been tested on such and such a day within the last  12 months and is safe to use. So its a bit like a car MOT really for electrics in that there is no guarantee that three days after its test something has failed and its unsafe. For us guitarists the grey area is that f you have an effects thingy for example which runs off a wall wart the wall wart needs a sticker the thingy doesn't.

Bottom line is if your employer/booker insists you have valid PAT certs for everything get it done. I would advocate get it done anyway along with regular monthly checks by yourself that anything you plug into the mains is safe  i 

I think you might find its more regular than every 12 months depending on the type of product and frequency of use....   

ICBM

jpfamps said:

This amused me on a piece of kit I had into repair:

http://jpfamps.com/portable-appliance-testing-pat-zealotry

This amused me somewhat less. Found this on a piece of gear I was working on recently…

http://www.theangelconversations.com/pics/PAT.jpg

Currently valid PAT sticker on an incorrectly fitted mains plug - note that the cable grip is tightened on the inner wires and not the outer sheath as it's supposed to be. Although not actually dangerous - yet - it's very poor practice. Also the wrong fuse value is written on, although at least the 5A will blow sooner, rather than the other way round.

In cases like this PAT stickers aren't worth the label they're written on and are treated as a licence to print money by the people who do them.

mike257

Just a heads up regarding PLI and the Musicians Union. The cover is personal so is worthless to your band unless you all join. If you aren't already members or planning to be then it's cheaper to get a policy that covers the band as an entity.

EricTheWeary

We offered to play a charity gig. As in, for nothing, at our own expense. All set up and then because not everything was PAT tested we couldn't play as it was local authority premises.

imalone

maltingsaudio said:

Yes to both

PAT or Portable Appliance Test is a test of electrical safety for portable equipment. How they define portable is a mystery to me as a 60 kilo active sub doesn't really qualify as portable yet has to be tested.

Which is why it hasn't really been called PAT for ages, just 'electrical safety testing'. I remember the bafflement at work at the fridge getting 'PAT tested' then you have to gently explain to people that just because you can't lift it doesn't mean it can't catch fire.
(Edit: this in a place where one or two things have actually started smoking in the past...)