Tele wiring - HB neck, SC bridge

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I have a tele with a humbucker in the neck, it is dark. How would I make it brighter (as per my Les Paul neck HB)?

I have been reading around and I know the issue is with using a 250K pot.

So, I think there are two options.

Option 1. Using 250K pots. Add a resistor to the wiring to make the neck "see" 500K.
Where in this diagram should that resistor go?
What are the pros and cons of doing so?


Option 2. Using 500K pots, add 'something' to the bridge pickup to make it see 250K.
Where in this (the same) diagram should this 'thing' go?
What are the pros and cons of doing so?


The cap value shown in the diagrams is different to what I would like to use. I would like to use 0.022uf tone cap, but I have a range of Orange drops from .01 to .047, so I am open to any suggestions.

Thanks for any help.
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Comments

  • Not what you are asking, but I know that the Graham Coxon tele uses 375k pots which might be worth looking into.
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  • imaloneimalone Frets: 748
    Adding resistance to bring the pot load up to 500k is possible, but would mess with your volume control, as it needs to go in series with the pot, so the volume has to stop at half one way or the other (either [0 0.5] or [0.5 1]).

    It would be possible to put a 500k in parallel with the bridge pickup. It would be permanently in play though, so whenever you use the bridge you'd be on 250k load. In the diagram that'd be 500k between the white from the bridge and earth.

    A third option that might work, but slightly different wiring, is to wire the pickups to the switch contacts instead (put them on the same side, but to the terminals that hot on that side is wired to), then take hot bridging the switch poles (the two terminals that the pickups are shown connected to). This lets you connect something else to hot in the end positions, so a 500k to ground from the spare terminal on the *neck* side would be connected when the *bridge* only was in use.

    Don't know about the 375k pots, simpler solution I suppose, brighten both up a little. If you've got a range of capacitors probably best just try them and see which you like. I've got 33n in a single-coil tele, which seems okay, though wont take it all the way down to woolly.
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  • Thanks. I appreciate you trying to help, but without annotations on those diagrams, I'm a little lost :(
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  • I'm generally of the impression that there is no perfect solution to this?
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  • imaloneimalone Frets: 748
    Thanks. I appreciate you trying to help, but without annotations on those diagrams, I'm a little lost :(
    Could maybe draw something up this evening.

    I'm generally of the impression that there is no perfect solution to this?
    Perfect is the wrong word, it's down to personal preference. The rule of thumb is often 22n, 250k for single coils and 47u, 500k for humbuckers, but it's only a guideline. If you've got a dark neck bucker that you want to brighten up then maybe just fit the 500k pot and see what the bridge is like afterwards. The balancing act comes in the mid position, but it only matters if you use that sound.
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  • RichardjRichardj Frets: 1538
    edited October 2014
    I had the exact same issue with my G&L ASAT Bluesboy. I didn't want to mess with the pots as it would be tricky to tame the already bright bridge pickup. I ended up changing the neck pickup to something that lived better with 250k pots. However Fender has this http://support.fender.com/service_diagrams/telecaster/011-8600A_SISD.pdf. solution, using 500k pots and a 270k resistor from the switch to ground. Might be worth a go.
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  • Do you use your tone controls? A lot of people don't , you could use two volumes one a 500 and other a 250, and use an auto split on switch, so middle position is two singles. Lots of different tones available to you then. Or you could just do this with a small cap for tone on bridge pickup. As most people set Tele up for bridge sound, the neck sound often is too bassy as bridge is so bright that it's tempered first. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7440801/Guitar Wiring/TeleBridgeTone1.jpg
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  • Yes, I use my tone and volumes quite a lot.
    Thanks for all the suggestions.

    I have a set of Bare Knuckle flat 50's on there way to me which I am going to install for the classic Broadcaster SC / SC setup with 250K pots. However, I love the 'fat' look of a humbucker up front. I am going to ask John at Hot-Rod Pickups if he can wind me a HB sized P90 that would work with a 250K pot and that would remain balanced with the BKP neck single coil. :)
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31370
    Just to throw another suggestion into the mix, you could try a HB sized Mojo Gold Foil, that would be awesome in the neck position of a Tele!
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  • lol
    I think I prefer the Dreamer from Hot-Rod. Im just not sure how easy it would be to wind one that would work with a 250K pot and be balanced with the BKP flat 50 bridge, which is wound with 43AWG, using Alnico V magnet and rated at 10.6 K Ohms
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  • RichardjRichardj Frets: 1538
    A +1 for a 'bucker sized P90 in there.  I tried that first with a GFS Mean 90 and it was a vast improvement over the stock 'bucker.  I possibly would have stuck with it if I hadn't been able to pick up a custom wide range pickup.  Which is really recommended by the way.  Mark at Mojo makes a drop in replacement and it is superb.
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  • Does a wide range bucker work with 250k pots? What is the difference between a wide range and standard bucker?
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  • Wide range is a different beast entirely, we are working currently on a design but not at the point of sale as yet. Options after market on these are limited. I would say you options are, a Dreamer (HB sized P90) as discussed, a Novatron (our own Filtertron) or a punchier neck HB, a pat/vintage style bucker will always either sound dark or weak in a ash/alder guitar if you are comparing to a maple-mahogany construction LP. Ultimately effective changes are possible but body and fingerboard wood will play more part in the instruments inherent tone than caps and pots, We prefer a more holistic approach to tone and happy to help you if we can :)
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  • imaloneimalone Frets: 748
    Okay, so this is with a parallel load on the bridge pickup, permanently on. Wired like this with a 500k R and 500k pots you have:
    1. Neck sees 500k (less tone circuit).
    2. Neck + bridge sees 250k (ditto)
    3. Bridge sees 250k (...)image
    This is with things switched round, the reason for doing this is the hot signal can be switched onto something on both poles, so we can have the extra resistor on only when the switch is in the bridge position (the switching is actually the same @koneguitarist's example uses except that adds in the tone pot instead). Now:
    1. Neck sees 500k (less tone circuit).
    2. Neck + bridge sees 500k (ditto)
    3. Bridge sees 250k (...)
    image

    Ultimately effective changes are possible but body and fingerboard wood will play more part in the instruments inherent tone than caps and pots, We prefer a more holistic approach to tone and happy to help you if we can :)
    Hmm, I can even buy that the fingerboard can make a difference, since it forms part of the beam that's the most flexible bit of the guitar. So no reason it can't have some effect on resonance and damping. However the capacitors and tone pots form part of a resonant network with the pickups and cable. If you believe the pickups make a difference then pots and capacitors do too, or you can just adjust your tone pot and see for yourself :)
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  • @imalone Thanks man, that's awesome. Option 1 appears to be the best option, I get a neck humbucker that sounds good with a 500k pot, the middle is stock, which is actually quite nice, the dark humbucker mixed with the bridge does sound good, the neck is 'normal' for a single coil with it seeing a 250k pot. Are there any downsides at all to using a resistor on the bridge? Strictly In terms of its affect on either the pots operation, or the tone from the pickup? I also like option 1 because I can swap out the humbucker for a HB sized P90 and it work correctly (from reading around, a P90 should also use a 500k pot(?))
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  • This is the Tele. '52 CS Heavy Relic. Maple board, two piece Ash body. http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/db3266/927E8D08-36A3-410D-A1FD-D00DC3FAB526_zpspj6bimgs.jpg
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  • So all I need is 2 x 500k audio taper pots and one of these http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/metal-film-06w-510k-ohm-resistor-m510k
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    I would go for the resistor permanently in parallel with the bridge pickup - the middle position needs it as well because the mix is more dependent on the lower output pickup than the higher… the lower impedance dominates, which is counterintuitive but is similar to (say) mixing speakers of different impedances - the lower impedance draws more current.

    If you want, you can then use the same extra switch terminal to select the tone cap values to optimise them as well - ideally you need .047uF in the bridge position and .022 in the other two, so if you change the arrangement so the cap is between the volume and tone pots rather than between the tone pot and ground, you can use a .022 cap there, and another one from that extra terminal to the tone pot so the two caps are in parallel when the bridge is selected.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • @ICBM you mean option 1? I don't really know what you mean about the caps? I was actually thinking of using a single 0.033 as a compromise.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    edited October 2014
    No - 500K pots, 500K resistor in parallel with the bridge pickup as in imalone's first diagram, then on the second diagram, instead of a resistor going to ground, use that terminal to connect a second .022uF cap from there to the left terminal of the tone pot. The main .022uF cap goes where the wire is between the left terminals of both pots, and the middle terminal of the tone pot is grounded (basically the Gibson tone layout).

    Or you could just use .033 cap :) - but actually it will have a slightly different sound, the value of the cap affects the resonant frequency of the pickup rather than just the amount of treble roll-off.

    You can't use 250K pots and add a resistor to make the neck pickup see 500K, it won't work that way round because then the volume pot won't go to zero.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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