Can modelling amps create the future ?

darcym

pondering, modelling amps are getting a lot better and the last few years have made them jump forward.

I spent some time with a Kemper and was really impressed, but that said I found myself lacking the feel of my own amp. I've discussed this before, but one thing that's only really just occurred to me.

The modelling amps are judged by how close they can get to the sound and response of the real amps they model, lets say 15 years time, amps are not made because the digital amps are that good, what will the digital amps model as there is nothing there to model as amp production has stopped.

Do you think digital amps can be taken forward as a starting platform rather than a modelling of existing amps platform ? can you see this becoming the norm (I can't at this stage - not even 15 years down the line).

Interested in hearing your thoughts.

Danny1969

I see a lot of people get an Axefx, be really impressed with it and then you see it up for sale a few months later so no, I don't think normal amps will die a a death any time soon

What's needed is for amps to be made for the purpose they are used for. A lot of people say I love my xxx amp but I can't crank it at a pub gig etc because it's 50 watts. Well if you gig a 5 watt amp you can crank it. What we need are more low powered valve amps designed for modern mic'ed up gigging. Small, cheap and great sounding 

By the time modelling is good enough you wont need it anyway in a stand alone unit. Anyone gigging with a modern digital desk can already just di and use Amplitude, Waves or 11 running in sofware off the desk in tandem with PT or Reaper etc. 

Gassage

If they are, who builds the new amps to model? Or have we just stopped with amps?

dindude

darcym said:

 modelling amps are getting a lot better

Problem is this statement is largely untrue in my book. You have the Axe Fx and the Kemper, but the mainstream modelling market is stuck in 2005 and really hasn't advanced much at all.

I guess there could be a future where digital amps are the mainstream, like digital cameras now are, but they have a loooong way to go before I sell my valve amp that's for sure.

Heartfeltdawn

darcym said:

pondering, modelling amps are getting a lot better and the last few years have made them jump forward.

I spent some time with a Kemper and was really impressed, but that said I found myself lacking the feel of my own amp. I've discussed this before, but one thing that's only really just occurred to me.

The modelling amps are judged by how close they can get to the sound and response of the real amps they model, lets say 15 years time, amps are not made because the digital amps are that good, what will the digital amps model as there is nothing there to model as amp production has stopped.

Do you think digital amps can be taken forward as a starting platform rather than a modelling of existing amps platform ? can you see this becoming the norm (I can't at this stage - not even 15 years down the line).

It's a hypothetical future that won't happen. Modern music would be your pointer. It is dominated by digital formats yet vinyl is selling again and there's even a market in some parts of the world for cassettes again. Enough people are out there who either want the vinyl sound or have been sucked into the 'isn't vinyl the best thing ever' fantasy to warrant vinyl releases continuing.  

Amps would be no different. The tonechasers bashing around with digital amps would always have that feeling that they could elevate their sound to the next level if they swapped the digital world for an analogue tube-driven world. Even if the big manufacturers backed out of amp production, the smaller builders would have a field day. 

Personally I'd welcome digital amps having nothing to model themselves on. Scuffham's S-Gear is the only plugin I rate in the amp world. Instead of modelling specific amps, it seems the developer went for something that just sounds good. 

Jeremiah

In 50 years time, people will be paying thousands for vintage Line 6 Pods and trying to recreate their sounds with quantum computers or whatever they have by then. But they'll never sound quite the same and people will still be seeking out the real thing.

(this is not entirely serious, but in the world of electronic music there are actually plugins that are meant to emulate the sounds of early 8 and 12 bit samplers and the primitive sound chips from old computers and stuff.)

ThePrettyDamned

dindude;371554" said:

darcym said:

 modelling amps are getting a lot better

Problem is this statement is largely untrue in my book. You have the Axe Fx and the Kemper, but the mainstream modelling market is stuck in 2005 and really hasn't advanced much at all.

I guess there could be a future where digital amps are the mainstream, like digital cameras now are, but they have a loooong way to go before I sell my valve amp that's for sure.

I disagree - yamaha thr, blackstar ID and id core are excellent - and the ID range of gigging amps actually *feel* like amps, something @darcym has alluded to.

No, they don't feel the same, but they do have some dynamics in them and are remarkably good sounding - actually losing some of the blackstar dark voicing on some settings, too.

Okay, it won't replace a tweed deluxe, but come on - a tweed deluxe won't replace a jcm800. It's a good, solid sounding gigging amp.

I don't think valves amps are on their way out. I think, and hope, modelling continues to get better.

The other thing is unfair comparison. Modellers are usually demod in recording software DI'D or at low volume. Rock the volume up a bit, and dial it well, it'll surprise you.

Do you think a Dumble would sound quite as good if it was DI'D?

Jez6345789

What will change it a bit is when the next Satch, Vai, SRV, Slash, Insert whatever name you like here they will be a generational player that captivates both public and guitarists alike and they will use modelling it will not sound like a twin reverb or a plexi marshall but will sound totally awesome.

As also mentioned here Line 6 killed much in the way of R&D as they had a monopoly and cheapish prices so nobody really entered the market, they then squandered that advantage and never really delivered the next generations of improved modelling.

Yamaha THR is not bad but it needs some work to go further

I also like the Scuffham's S-Gear as mentioned earlier a fave plugin.

Still interested in a Kemper but a bit rich these days for a stay at home part time  recording artist :-)

darcym

sorry, I'm not suggesting valve amps are on the way out, I'm questioning how the modelling amps will evolve, if there is nothing new to model because amps are being replaced by digital ones, what will push it forward.

I'm not aware of the good units like AxeFX or Kemper having the "Axe Amp" or the "Kemper clean" amps, they are all models of something else, so what if you take that modelling source away, will the digital world start to develop their own amp sounds ?

Roland

Sounds will evolve, but the change won't necessarily be driven by the technology. There was technological development of guitars and amps in the '60s and '70s, and synths in the '80s. The technology did not drive the music, it got used as a way of supplying the music. 

When someone uses a novel guitar sound on a high sales/download volume single then the market may follow. The way things are going that sound may come from a plugin, rather than a modelling amp, and it may not be what we think of as an amp-type sound

ecc83

"yamaha thr, blackstar ID and id core are excellent - and the ID range of gigging amps actually *feel* like amps, something @darcym has alluded to. "

I agree TPD that the above amps have had a lot of good rep.

However I do disagree that valves will continue. I believe their time is about done in mass consumer products like guitar amps. I say this because the counties that presently make them will get "greener". Either by internal pressure or more likely by world condemnation as the facts of the bad practices leak out.

Some will stop production altogether pushing prices up. Some will clean up and push prices up! Whatever the scenario that plays out I foresee a £50 bog standard ECC83 in no more than a decade. 100quid a pop for basic EL84s and you will need a second mortgage for a quartet of KT88s/6550s.

Dave.

ICBM

I don't think there's been a novel guitar sound from a valve amp since the last truly iconic amp - the Mesa Dual Rectifier - came out, and that's 1991.

Obviously there have been new amps and slightly different sounds since then, but nothing that has revolutionised guitar tone in the same way. That's a longer time - by far - than any other amp sound has remained 'the last'.

So I would say that the era of valve amps being the driving factor in tone and music is probably over. Where we go from here is more debatable...

guitarfishbay

darcym said:

I'm not aware of the good units like AxeFX or Kemper having the "Axe Amp" or the "Kemper clean" amps, they are all models of something else

By its nature the Kemper won't, by virtue of how the technology works - it starts off by capturing something that already exists in some form.  However you are free to edit what you do capture so you could end up with something totally new.

The Axe FX 2 has a few unique to Axe FX amp models.  Some/all may have start points of real amps but then they've been tweaked to take advantage of what is possible in digital.  Look for models that start FAS, or state FAS custom model in the description, there are several.

 http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Amp:_all_models

On FAS modern (From Axe wiki)

Custom Fractal model, a high-gain hybrid, equally well-suited to modern rhythm and lead workCliff: "This model is my interpretation of the ideal modern metal tone. In the digital realm we are not constrained by the limitations that face tube amp designers so we are free to implement designs that would be nearly impossible with a tube amp. The Axe-Fx II modeling includes a variety of general purpose filters that I can place anywhere in the signal path. So I put some second-order filters in there to tighten up the tone. Implementing second-order filters in a real tube amp is difficult and costly so is rarely seen"

ecc83

" Implementing second-order filters in a real tube amp is difficult and costly so is rarely seen"

Cathode follower, Sallen and Key? Would not break the bank IMHO.

Dave.

richardhomer

ICBM;371925" said:

I don't think there's been a novel guitar sound from a valve amp since the last truly iconic amp - the Mesa Dual Rectifier - came out

Absolutely spot on.

It's the same with effects. The last 'new' effect really was the Digitech Whammy - which was an older effect (pitch-shifting) controlled in a new way. The Boss Tera Echo is a couple of older effects melded into one.

All of which leads me to conclude that to be of interest, anything 'new' has to have a musical application.

I think there is enough variation between clean and dirty, dark and bright, mid-heavy and mid-scooped available already in the market to cover any sound that may be considered 'musical'.

monquixote

It's already happened it's just passed most of us old farts by.

In a lot of djent they use modellers as their preferred choice for hyper aggressive gated stuff. They aren't bothered about valve amps.

gubble

Ok i'm going to put my hat into the ring here and suggest something that may alreayd have been eluded to.

 

Is part of the problem that we are so stuck in our ways of wanting to re-create the sound of a plexi/bassman/AC30 that we are not letting the creative forces bring us something new and exciting?

Almost every single amp is now based on a classic design - because that's what the market demands. Anything completley brand new will probably be shunned until (as already mentioned) the next guitar superstar starts using one.

jpfamps

ICBM said:

I don't think there's been a novel guitar sound from a valve amp since the last truly iconic amp - the Mesa Dual Rectifier - came out, and that's 1991.

Obviously there have been new amps and slightly different sounds since then, but nothing that has revolutionised guitar tone in the same way. That's a longer time - by far - than any other amp sound has remained 'the last'.

So I would say that the era of valve amps being the driving factor in tone and music is probably over. Where we go from here is more debatable...

I'd say about 1971!

Fretwired

dindude said:

darcym said:

 modelling amps are getting a lot better

Problem is this statement is largely untrue in my book. You have the Axe Fx and the Kemper, but the mainstream modelling market is stuck in 2005 and really hasn't advanced much at all.

Sorry but it has ...

And a guy in a local rock covers band used to gig with a Line 6 POD II HD and cab and got some excellent classic rock tones .. punters really don't care what you're playing through .. there are modellers that are good enough to gig with. The problem is pure snobbery on the part of guitarists .. by the time you add bass, drums, a vocalist and maybe keyboards plus a bunch of punters the average Joe won't know if you have a valve amp, a modelling amp or a laptop and some software [which is where I think we'll end up].

jpfamps

ecc83 said:

"yamaha thr, blackstar ID and id core are excellent - and the ID range of gigging amps actually *feel* like amps, something @darcym has alluded to. "

I agree TPD that the above amps have had a lot of good rep.

However I do disagree that valves will continue. I believe their time is about done in mass consumer products like guitar amps. I say this because the counties that presently make them will get "greener". Either by internal pressure or more likely by world condemnation as the facts of the bad practices leak out.

Some will stop production altogether pushing prices up. Some will clean up and push prices up! Whatever the scenario that plays out I foresee a £50 bog standard ECC83 in no more than a decade. 100quid a pop for basic EL84s and you will need a second mortgage for a quartet of KT88s/6550s.

Dave.

As long as valves are used for moderate to high power radio transmitters and radar (and it doesn't seem that this is likely to change in the near future), then there will always be the capacity to make receiving valves.

The fact that valve production is concentrated in a very few factories worldwide is more a reflection of how modern production is going; look how the floods in Thailand affected hard drive prices. And hard drives are hardly obsolete tech.

The imminent demise of the valve has been predicted ever since I've been playing guitar (early 80's), as indeed was vinyl, the Hammond organ and other analogue keyboards such as the Wurlitzer and Fender Rhodes.

When I started playing you bought a transistor amp because a (new) valve amp was expensive (although AC30s and the like were often junked). Now thanks to manufacturing in the Far East valve amps have never been more affordable, so there must, in my view, be more demand for valves now than there was say 10-15 years ago.

Valve production is economically insignificant (cf vacuum cleaners), so I doubt it's even on the radar.

jpfamps

ThePrettyDamned said:

I disagree - yamaha thr, blackstar ID and id core are excellent - and the ID range of gigging amps actually *feel* like amps, something @darcym has alluded to.

I used a Blackstar ID at rehearsal recently, and it sounded so poor even the horn section commented on it (and they normally don't listen to the guitar!).

All I was asking from it was a clean sound with a bit of reverb or delay for mainly Ska rhythm playing, so hardly an exacting task.