The F1 thread

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

Yeah, maybe on a conceptual level, but the negative PR around kicking out a 3-time champion would be big. Can't see the Merc board liking that.

The genie is out of the bottle - Hamster fans are now anti-Merc as Woolf said he 'd let them race and then issued team orders. If Rosberg really was a world champ he'd have overtaken Hamilton as had the two collided Hamilton would have been the loser.

Hamster haters are accusing him of dirty tricks and unsportsmanlike behaviour and of damaging the Mercedes brand - they want him sacked.

Either way the PR from this detracts from Rosberg's win - Woolf's view is nobody is bigger than the team. I think Hamilton disagrees with that. I really can't see this being resolved - Woolf has to either admit defeat and let Hamilton and Rosberg race no matter what or he has to split them up.

TimmyO

Does anybody *really* think that Lauda doesn't favour Nico? 

As for nobody being bigger than the team - that's a problem if you've hired the only driver currently in F1 who has super-star status, and you are a German saloon manufacturer... 

boogieman

I know it's a different matter when it actually comes to overtaking, but it did make me laugh hearing Rosberg whining to the team on the radio that he was faster than Lewis and he should be in front. If you're that fast Nico, why didn't you just go ahead and overtake? I bet Lewis, Max and Seb would've had a go, not just sat behind, moaning. 

fretmeister

TimmyO said:

Fretwired said:

@fretmeister loves my predictions as they're nearly always wrong ... :-)

Vettel to Mercedes and Hamilton to Ferrari .. probably 2018. Hamilton's not popular with the German team and Vettel's upset the senior Ferrari management a few times. Hamilton's win at all costs and 'me first' attitude is respected at Ferrari which is a team that likes a number one driver.

Hamilton has always said he'd love a drive with Ferrari .. can't see him going to McLaren.

No - I really don't want this to happen. Ferrari are my "hate" team :-) - I couldn't support a driver who was there, and with Button retiring my 'career support*' vote was going to move to Hamilton. 

* - since being a kid I have this thing where I support McLaren (and whoever is in the team at the time) plus one British driver for their career, as long as it lasts. Button has been my guy since he showed up. 

I had similar - but with Williams. Such a shame that they probably don't have a chance of winning again.

I'm not a big fan of Ferrari either, but I do like Kimi so that year I was pleased.

Hamilton is a superb driver and when he got into F1 it was great. But he's turned into such a massive tool. I have no problem with the ruthlessness, it's the childlike whinging that goes with it. 

His twitter feed is almost as bad as Trump's. If he wins, then he's awesome. If he doesn't then it's because a higher power has decided it's not his turn. 

stickyfiddle

On the subject of Hamilton the bloke, a friend actually met both him and Rosberg at separate events this week. 

Aparently Nico came across very well, chatting with everyone there, and making special efforts to talk to kids about racing etc. Hamilton showed up in a helicopter, spent 10 minutes saying hi to people then fucked off with his entourage. 

Im not making any suggestion as to how much either was simply fulfilling contractual obligations etc, but I suspect I know who I'd rather work with.

fretmeister

Nice quote from Brundle

"Hamilton's tactics were unfair on his team-mate, uncomfortable to observe, and disrespectful to his team. And I'd have been surprised and disappointed if he had done anything else. "

stickyfiddle

fretmeister said:

Nice quote from Brundle

"Hamilton's tactics were unfair on his team-mate, uncomfortable to observe, and disrespectful to his team. And I'd have been surprised and disappointed if he had done anything else. "

Brilliant!  

Paul_C

The trouble was, even if Hamilton had managed to get a couple of cars past Rosberg, as soon as Hamilton speeded up Rosberg would have been straight back past again, so I doubt it would have made the slightest bit of difference.

I've only seen a couple of live races this year and most of the ones I recorded I wiped without bothering to watch them, hopefully a few more teams will be competitive next year.

Fretwired

Paul_C said:

The trouble was, even if Hamilton had managed to get a couple of cars past Rosberg, as soon as Hamilton speeded up Rosberg would have been straight back past again, so I doubt it would have made the slightest bit of difference.

I've only seen a couple of live races this year and most of the ones I recorded I wiped without bothering to watch them, hopefully a few more teams will be competitive next year.

Paddy could always turn Hamilton's engine down ... :-)

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

On the subject of Hamilton the bloke, a friend actually met both him and Rosberg at separate events this week. 

Aparently Nico came across very well, chatting with everyone there, and making special efforts to talk to kids about racing etc. Hamilton showed up in a helicopter, spent 10 minutes saying hi to people then fucked off with his entourage. 

Im not making any suggestion as to how much either was simply fulfilling contractual obligations etc, but I suspect I know who I'd rather work with.

Hamilton is successful and in demand - Nico is anodyne and is Mr Nobody. Lewis probably does this all the time and has an ego to match - he just goes through the motions. Unfortunately as Bernie says Lewis is of value to F1 and Nico. Isn't. Nico isn't even popular in Germany. Lewis has got the Merc brand into new markets - outside F1 nobody has a clue who Nico is ... Lewis has brand value.

Lewis hangs out with A-listed celebs whereas Nico prefers home life. Nico will no doubt be the happier and more grounded guy in the future. Lewis can't even keep a relationship with his girlfriend's ticking over - I suspect he may crash and burn when his F1 career is over.

Fretwired

Interesting premium article from the Telegraph (behind a paywall for most people)

Lewis Hamilton's tactics were within the rules, hurt no one and made F1's finale more exciting - why the fuss?

When Sir Ben Ainslie sailed his great rival Robert Scheidt down the fleet to claim the first of his four Olympic gold medals at Sydney 2000, avenging his defeat at the hands of the Brazilian from four years before, Australian Special Branch detectives had to keep a close eye on the ensuing medal ceremony after Ainslie received death threats. The British sailor heard later that effigies of him had been burned in São Paulo, so controversial were his match-racing tactics, which were uncommon to fleet racing at the time.

Ainslie – now celebrated, of course, for being one of the most ruthless and aggressive sailors in history – saw nothing wrong in what he did. On the contrary, he regards the race as one of the greatest achievements of his career. "I had to do it within the rules,” he once said of his tactics, which involved blocking the Brazilian's progress at every turn; taking his rival's wind. “With pinpoint positioning, boat-handling, aggression, tactics, under that much pressure... It never crossed my mind that it was unsporting, and I have no qualms about what I did."

While not completely the same – not least, of course, the fact that Lewis Hamilton was acting in direct contravention of team orders whereas Ainslie was competing for himself – there are similarities between what Ainslie did to Scheidt in Sydney 16 years ago and what Lewis Hamilton attempted to do to Nico Rosberg in Abu Dhabi on Sunday. Hamilton, using superior track position, tried to influence the result of the race by backing up his rival, allowing both the Ferrari of Sebastian Vettel and the Red Bull of Max Verstappen the chance to move to within striking distance of Rosberg. Hamilton’s hope was that both cars would pass his team mate’s thereby giving him rather than the German the world title.

That Hamilton was unsuccessful in his aim is irrelevant. It was his intent. That is what has caused such a fuss.

So was Hamilton guilty of bad sportsmanship? Did he, to use Rosberg’s description, resort to “dirty tactics”? Ainslie would surely not have deemed them so. As Hamilton was at pains to point out afterwards he did not break any rules. He was not unsafe in his driving. What he did required skill; slowing his car down without giving Rosberg the chance to pass him. Rosberg, in fact, made a point of commending Hamilton’s technique, saying the Briton “did it perfectly, so there was absolutely no way for me to manage to get by”.

Why, then, the outrage? Surely Hamilton was perfectly within his rights to drive any way he saw fit in order to try to win the title, so long as he did not endanger anyone else or break any rules? There is no requirement to drive the fastest to win.

You do have the thorny issue that Hamilton broke team orders repeatedly and brazenly - but then this only serves to illustrate for about the zillionth time great paradox of F1, that it is both a team sport and an individual one. Many of the greatest drivers in history have disregarded their own teams when it suits their purposes. Are we honestly saying Ayrton Senna or Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso would not have tried a similar tactic given the same situation? That is what makes them winners.

Surely the bigger question is why Mercedes felt the need to impose team orders in the first place, with the constructors’ crown already secured? Why not let their two drivers race fairly and squarely? After all, there was nothing to stop Rosberg from attempting to overtake Hamilton if he felt he could.

The only convincing criticism levelled at Hamilton on Sunday concerned his behaviour afterwards – and to an extent in the build-up; the need to keep reminding the world of the poor luck he has suffered this year, the fact that he considers himself the superior driver and ‘moral victor’. Even here, though, things need to be kept in perspective. Yes, he might have been quicker and warmer with the congratulations. Some have cited the example of Felipe Massa who was dignity personified in defeat to Hamilton in 2008. But such is the way Hamilton is wired. We knew that already. Again, it is what makes him such a formidable competitor. And in his defence he did go on to congratulate Rosberg repeatedly in television, radio and in the official FIA press conference.

Ultimately, Hamilton’s tactics were within the rules, hurt no one and made the final grand prix of the year far more exciting than it otherwise might have been. For that we should be thankful. That Rosberg proved equal to the task, showing great composure in the race, as he did throughout the run-in to the season, as Hamilton bore down on him, simply makes the German's achievement all the greater.

gavin_axecaster

A couple of glaring mistakes in that article - Rosberg did not say Hamilton was playing "dirty tactics" - that was Vettel. I  think the only comment Rosberg had on it (in addition to the quote) was something to the effect that he understood the team's position and he understood Hamilton's position and that was the end of it.
Secondly Hamilton very specifically said in an interview before the race that he wasn't the "moral victor" - he was that asked outright and said he didn't agree with that sort of thinking - it was the sort of thing his uncle did when he lost at golf.

Was it dirty tactics? Nope. Paddy Lowe "instruction" him to speed up was dirty tactics. The constructor championship was wrapped up and a Mercedes driver was about to win the driver's title, regardless of who finished where. They should never have put Hamilton in that position.
Should he have done it? Well as it didn't work you could say clearing off and winning by a mile may have been the better way to show his superiority - winning more races and more poles (with more dnfs) than Nico and still losing the title must be galling.

Hamilton didn't act with much grace after the race. Yes, he shook Nico's hand and hugged him but his body language and some of his comments were a little off (Lee McKenzie asked him if "the better man won" and he said "well I wouldn't say that!")
Hamilton has a massive ego and I think he is always fighting his less mature instincts/emotions and yesterday he couldn't put on a brave face.

I'd love to see Hamilton win again next year then bugger off to Ferrari and win a title there but unless Ferrari have something very special on the cards for next year I can't see them being that attractive to a driver used to winning.

paul_c2

Mercedes (the team) were thinking long-term - in 10-15 years to come, nobody will care what a ding-dong battle the race was, they'll just look back at the number of wins, number of 1-2s, number of points etc. There was a risk by bunching up the top 4 cars, that it would all go Pete Tong, they (the team) wanted that risk to not exist.

Hamilton was thinking about himself, and it was really the only tactic available to him. It made for an exciting last race, there was a 1-2 finish and no crashes - I don't think Mercedes can be too unhappy with the end result. However as far as Hamilton goes, it was too late, if you look back at the season there's been a number of poor starts he's made, which have cost him points - enough points to lose the championship overall. The reliability thing - yeah he's had bad luck, but then it balances out and in 2014-2105 he had good luck. Rosberg was able to properly capitalise on Hamilton's issues, to go on and score more points, which is what its all about.

With next season's big technical changes there's a chance Red Bull and Ferrari will be right up there on level with Merc - there's also a chance that one of those teams, in fact it could even be another one (has happened before) will have a distinct technical advantage and dominate. Mercedes would be daft to suspend/get rid of Hamilton, he's one of the best drivers out there after all. Personally I think its actually very even between Verstappen-Ricciardo-Vettel-Rosberg-Hamilton and if the cars are more equal, could be a 5 way battle next year - with the advantage swinging from team to team accoding to the nature of the racetracks.

Paul_C

here's another example :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/american-football/38133618

Fretwired

Paul_C said:

here's another example :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/american-football/38133618

This the worst example ...... Oz v N Zealand

stickyfiddle

Pics from the tyre test - this year's cars with next year's rubber. 

sweepy

Proper looking. Cars there, it's amazing the difference that the new tyres make 

stickyfiddle

sweepy said:

Proper looking. Cars there, it's amazing the difference that the new tyres make 

Agreed. The skinny rear wing makes the RB look a bit odd but the Ferrari looks fantastic. Just hope all this extra grip doesn't make overtaking even worse next year

Fretwired

Hamilton to be sacked? That's the rumour floating around the tyre test that he pulled out of after a few laps.

paul_c2

Fretwired said:

Hamilton to be sacked? That's the rumour floating around the tyre test that he pulled out of after a few laps.

....rumour started by the Daily Mail......say no more.