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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 9036
    Aaaand Max has crashed again...
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  • ColsCols Frets: 221
    It’s kind of his thing.  He was jealous of Grosjean.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748

    Vettel passes the new improved Williams as it trundles along the pitlane ... :-)

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1643
    If being Kevin Magnusen means being a twat then he had it coming, it was a Maldonarsehole style stunt.
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  • ColsCols Frets: 221
    Garthy said:
    If being Kevin Magnusen means being a twat then he had it coming, it was a Maldonarsehole style stunt.
    Same old crap, jinking towards people on the straight.  The stewards have let him off with it, bizarrely.
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 1269
    I'm confused, a really excellent race weekend, and no opinions or comments from you lot?! What's going on???
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    PC_Dave said:
    I'm confused, a really excellent race weekend, and no opinions or comments from you lot?! What's going on???
    New rules .. stewards can play a Joker at any time in the race by having a safety car period .. certainly spiced things up but without Hamilton's poor start and a few crashes it would have been boring. Hamilton showed what's wrong with F1 in under 10 laps.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 1269
    Fretwired said:
    PC_Dave said:
    I'm confused, a really excellent race weekend, and no opinions or comments from you lot?! What's going on???
    New rules .. stewards can play a Joker at any time in the race by having a safety car period .. certainly spiced things up but without Hamilton's poor start and a few crashes it would have been boring. Hamilton showed what's wrong with F1 in under 10 laps.
    Hamilton shows me what's wrong with F1 every time he speaks. Or shows up.
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    PC_Dave said:
    Fretwired said:
    PC_Dave said:
    I'm confused, a really excellent race weekend, and no opinions or comments from you lot?! What's going on???
    New rules .. stewards can play a Joker at any time in the race by having a safety car period .. certainly spiced things up but without Hamilton's poor start and a few crashes it would have been boring. Hamilton showed what's wrong with F1 in under 10 laps.
    Hamilton shows me what's wrong with F1 every time he speaks. Or shows up.
    I don't get the hate. He's a council estate kid whose done well through hard work and talent and some luck .. I prefer him to the spoilt, papered brat that was Rosberg.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • not_the_djnot_the_dj Frets: 5494
    Are you guys all Sky watchers? 

    Eddie Jordon did a piece before the C4 qualifying show ranting about the woes at Williams and McLaren which was quite entertaining.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    Are you guys all Sky watchers? 

    Eddie Jordon did a piece before the C4 qualifying show ranting about the woes at Williams and McLaren which was quite entertaining.
    Saw that. He then interviewed the head of McClaren. I thought his comments were fair. Claire Williams was about as convincing as Theresa May. Getting a manufacturer like Porsche onboard is the only way that team will survive. They just lost more sponsorship.

    Watching Hamilton carve his way through the field from the back to sixth in under 10 laps shows the gulf. There are four cars and Red Bull. The rest are basically varying degrees of rubbish. Felt sorry for Max and Daniel .. that Renault engine lacked grunt. I'd love to see a Mercedes engine in a Red Bull as that chassis looks awesome.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 1269
    Fretwired said:
    PC_Dave said:
    Fretwired said:
    PC_Dave said:
    I'm confused, a really excellent race weekend, and no opinions or comments from you lot?! What's going on???
    New rules .. stewards can play a Joker at any time in the race by having a safety car period .. certainly spiced things up but without Hamilton's poor start and a few crashes it would have been boring. Hamilton showed what's wrong with F1 in under 10 laps.
    Hamilton shows me what's wrong with F1 every time he speaks. Or shows up.
    I don't get the hate. He's a council estate kid whose done well through hard work and talent and some luck .. I prefer him to the spoilt, papered brat that was Rosberg.
    I don't doubt the talent, in fact i totally believe he is one of the best racing drivers ever, I just despise his attitude. He's a petulant child who moans when it's going wrong, it's never, ever his fault. Hashtag God Bless etc etc.

    He bats on about Silverstone being his home GP, which it technically is, but he hasn't resided in the UK for quite a long time..............
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 1269
    All my humble opinion, of course...
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • ColsCols Frets: 221
    Apparently Hamilton was ‘too exhausted’ to be interviewed by Brundle after the race.

    Must’ve been out of breath after constantly whinging over the radio for the entire race.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    edited July 9
    Cols said:
    Apparently Hamilton was ‘too exhausted’ to be interviewed by Brundle after the race.

    Must’ve been out of breath after constantly whinging over the radio for the entire race.
    You try it .... they all whinge .. Seb, Kimi, Max, Fernando .. its a tough sport .. it was hot and tense .. Hamilton said he lost 3 kg in body fluids and felt drained. He still managed to take on fluids and go and meet the crowd afterwards ..
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 1684
    Hamilton seems in an odd place psychologically, don't be surprised if he quits this year or takes a year Out
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10837
    Fretwired said:

    Watching Hamilton carve his way through the field from the back to sixth in under 10 laps shows the gulf. There are four cars and Red Bull. The rest are basically varying degrees of rubbish. Felt sorry for Max and Daniel .. that Renault engine lacked grunt. I'd love to see a Mercedes engine in a Red Bull as that chassis looks awesome.
    This exactly. It looks exciting but really isn't. Most of the midfield didn't put up a fight. They know they're underpowered by comparison and it's better to let him through. Hammy going past Alonso... christ, no wonder Fernando's fucked off. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 746
    edited July 9
    I was at work on nights so didn't see the race live, watched it on catch up. It was a great race and the safety cars spiced it up at the end, I think they were warranted both times for once. So many high speed corners at Silverstone it's safest for the stewards.

    I'm not sure I agree there's anything wrong with F1 in terms of the gulf in speed between the top teams and the rest. Can you name me a season since the early 80's where outside of the top 2 or 3 teams who have capitalised on the latest regs, there are others capable of gunning for wins or the title? I can't? The difference back in the 80's and 90's was increased retirements etc. which meant someone from midfield could capitalise, doesn't happen so much at all now.

    Or you'd get someone exceptional like Senna in 1984 with Toleman. Ferrari/Mclaren/Williams dominated the early to mid 80's, McLaren dominated the late 80's and early 90's. Williams again absolutely made a joke of the field when Mansell won the title in 1992, they all dominated the pack in their eras. Schumacher mixed it with the Benetton against the Williams but they were both ahead of the rest too. Then onto the Schumacher/Hakkinen battles, Ferrari domination. I could go on but you get the drift, as F1 became more and more technical courtesy of the money and the likes of Colin Chapman/Gordon Murray/Newey, it was always inevitable. The action was closer back then of course thanks to less aero and tyre issues and there were more surprise results, but more often than not it was the top teams of the day winning.

    Can't say there's been too much wrong with this season, except for the stupid tyre saving and pace management which has bugged me a lot. At least there is a fight between the top two as opposed to a fight between the drivers in one team. As for the Lewis hate, I just don't get it, typical of the Brits to put down one of our best sports stars. Easily one of the best ever and he still gets slagged off, he can't win but I think he knows and doesn't care. Good luck to him, he's a decent fella as far as I'm concerned and I hope he can beat Vettel but whoever wins this year will have earned it.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • ColsCols Frets: 221
    Fretwired said:
    Cols said:
    Apparently Hamilton was ‘too exhausted’ to be interviewed by Brundle after the race.

    Must’ve been out of breath after constantly whinging over the radio for the entire race.
    You try it .... they all whinge .. Seb, Kimi, Max, Fernando .. its a tough sport .. it was hot and tense .. Hamilton said he lost 3 kg in body fluids and felt drained. He still managed to take on fluids and go and meet the crowd afterwards ..
    They do indeed; Seb 'blue flags' Vettel, Fernando 'GP2 engine' Alonso, Kimi 'I know what I'm doing' Raikkonen.  Lewis just seems to have an inexhaustible capacity to continue to moan long past the point where it could have any useful effect.

    It's his massive persecution complex that really gets on my nerves; the seeming suspicion that everyone, including his own team, are somehow conspiring to sabotage his chances.  Take Sunday as a case in point; after the incident he went on for ages about the car being damaged, despite his engineer repeatedly assuring him that it was fine.  Later on he moaned at length about the strategy and needed continual reassurance.  And then, after the race, effectively accused Raikkonen of committing a professional foul.

    His swashbuckling drive through the field to take second was utterly magnificent.  The petulant antics that surrounded it only serve to diminish his accomplishment; he would have been better served to put his head down and stoically get on with it.

    To quote Mark Hughes: "Hamilton sulked across the line in second, Räikkönen impassive in third."
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 9036
    Wis for @Boromedic ;

    F1 has always been unequal, and it always will be unless it turns into a spec series.

    What I do miss is the days when reliability was lower so you never knew who would be on the podium. between say 1998 to 2001 or so, you knew that it would be some combination of Hakkinen, Coulthard, Schumacher and Irvine/Barrichello if they all finished, but they didn't always, which left space for drivers from Williams, Jordan, Stewart/Jaguar, Benetton, BAR and even Prost (once!) to get podiums.

    Now we have Red Bull having a good shot, and occasionally Perez nicks one, or you get a batshit race and Stroll is somehow up there by the last lap. But the others have no chance. I miss that element greatly - how many times has Hulkenberg finished well clear of the rest of the midfield but behind the top 3 teams because they're bulletproof and simply faster? In "the old days" he would have had at least some podiums by now, if not wins
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    Wis for @Boromedic ;

    F1 has always been unequal, and it always will be unless it turns into a spec series.

    What I do miss is the days when reliability was lower so you never knew who would be on the podium. between say 1998 to 2001 or so, you knew that it would be some combination of Hakkinen, Coulthard, Schumacher and Irvine/Barrichello if they all finished, but they didn't always, which left space for drivers from Williams, Jordan, Stewart/Jaguar, Benetton, BAR and even Prost (once!) to get podiums.

    Now we have Red Bull having a good shot, and occasionally Perez nicks one, or you get a batshit race and Stroll is somehow up there by the last lap. But the others have no chance. I miss that element greatly - how many times has Hulkenberg finished well clear of the rest of the midfield but behind the top 3 teams because they're bulletproof and simply faster? In "the old days" he would have had at least some podiums by now, if not wins
    But in the old days you had unpredictability as cars were so unreliable. We now have very reliable cars - OK Mercedes had a problem at the previous race. Had Hamilton got a good start and not spun his wheels then he would probably of cruised to victory in a snorefest. The excitement is generated from driver error (it always was to some degree) rather than wheel to wheel racing.

    The gulf can be seen when Williams with a Mercedes engine lapped twice by the works Mercedes car ... it's obviously a crap car.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10837
    Wis for @Boromedic ;;

    F1 has always been unequal, and it always will be unless it turns into a spec series.

    What I do miss is the days when reliability was lower so you never knew who would be on the podium. between say 1998 to 2001 or so, you knew that it would be some combination of Hakkinen, Coulthard, Schumacher and Irvine/Barrichello if they all finished, but they didn't always, which left space for drivers from Williams, Jordan, Stewart/Jaguar, Benetton, BAR and even Prost (once!) to get podiums.

    And there is the major difference. Unreliability caused unexpected results. Now that unreliability has been greatly reduced, the surprise results have gone away. 

    Obviously we had dominance in the past. The 1988 season with McLaren winning all but one race comes to mind.

    As Fret says, cars getting lapped twice by cars with the same engine means there's a problem. Aero development is everything. Currently next year's Audi R8 LMS is getting tested: new aero keeps a fairly venerable car going. If your aero is shit you have no chance. A team that both builds it's own engine and has the money for serious aero research and development is way ahead of the pack, and this is what we have seen with Mercedes and Ferrari this year. Safety car interventions have done for more to jiggle up the grid than overtaking has this year.  
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • sinbaadisinbaadi Frets: 807
    I think races being decided by failures is worse than DRS or any level of domination by a single manufacturer.

    You might as well bring the big hand from the national lottery back and just use it to select a driver to DNF.  That would be as entertaining.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10837
    sinbaadi said:
    I think races being decided by failures is worse than DRS or any level of domination by a single manufacturer.

    You might as well bring the big hand from the national lottery back and just use it to select a driver to DNF.  That would be as entertaining.

    When Toyota came within a lap of winning Le Mans in 2016 before a turbo malfunction scuppered them, that was truly dramatic. Mansell's blown tyre at Adelaide. Carlos Sainz losing a rally world Championship 500 metres from the line when his Toyota expired. 

    Nobody is saying that we need to make cars more unreliable. It's unarguable though that issues with reliability meant more jumbled up results than we have now (try the 1982 season with 11 winners for instance). 

    In this case, the issue is seeing how easily Hamilton passed over half the field. They didn't fight him despite him trying to pass for position. Pretty much everyone gave up and let him though. When that includes a driver like Alonso, that's a sad statement on the lack of competition in F1 right now. 

    If three teams dominate, and two of those are several horsepower quicker than the third team, then it makes for tight racing over a very narrow field. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1643
    sinbaadi said:
    I think races being decided by failures is worse than DRS or any level of domination by a single manufacturer.

    You might as well bring the big hand from the national lottery back and just use it to select a driver to DNF.  That would be as entertaining.

    When Toyota came within a lap of winning Le Mans in 2016 before a turbo malfunction scuppered them, that was truly dramatic. Mansell's blown tyre at Adelaide. Carlos Sainz losing a rally world Championship 500 metres from the line when his Toyota expired. 

    Nobody is saying that we need to make cars more unreliable. It's unarguable though that issues with reliability meant more jumbled up results than we have now (try the 1982 season with 11 winners for instance). 

    In this case, the issue is seeing how easily Hamilton passed over half the field. They didn't fight him despite him trying to pass for position. Pretty much everyone gave up and let him though. When that includes a driver like Alonso, that's a sad statement on the lack of competition in F1 right now. 

    If three teams dominate, and two of those are several horsepower quicker than the third team, then it makes for tight racing over a very narrow field. 
    F1 has always been like this. Witness Alonso and Raikkonen pissing past people in Suzuka 2005 for example.

    There has always been a gulf in performance between the top three and the mid field, hell there's been seasons where there has been a gulf between the top two and the rest or even a single team:

    2018- Ferrari/MercRBR
    2017- Ferrari/Merc
    2016- Merc/Ferrari
    2015- Merc
    2014- Merc
    2013- RBR
    2012- RBR/Ferrari/Mclaren
    2011- RBR
    2010- RBR/Mclaren/Ferrari
    2009- Brawn/RBR
    2008- Ferrari/Mclaren/BMW
    2007- Ferrari/Mclaren
    2006- Renault/Mclaren/Ferrari
    2005- Renault/Mclaren
    2004- Ferrari
    2003- Ferrari/Mclaren
    2002- Ferrari
    2001- Ferrari/Williams/Mclaren
    2000- Ferrari/Mclaren
    1999- Ferrari/Mclaren
    1998- Mclaren
    1997- Williams/Mclaren/Ferrari
    1996- Williams
    1995- Benetton/Williams
    1994- Williams
    1993- Williams
    1992- Williams
    1991- Mclaren/Williams
    1990- Mclaren/Ferrari
    1989 Mclaren/Ferrari
    1988- Mclaren
    1987- Williams
    1986- Williams
    1985- Mclaren/Williams

    The further back you go, the bigger the gaps between teams get.





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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 9036
    I think my point isn't that we should try and bring back the levels of random engine blowups of old, but that element of "will my guy get a surprise result" has been lost. 

    On any given match day in the premier league there are 20 teams playing 10 matches, and even the likes of Southampton or West Ham have a chance of beating a Man City or Chelsea, and certainly have a chance of scoring goals even if they don't win. Obviously we all know it's unlikely, but you don't know for sure that the better team will always win.  

    We've lost that in F1 - we know that every race this year will likely be won by one of 3 teams, and no midfield cars will be above 5th place. And for each given track we usually know by the end of Friday which single team is most likely to take the win, and which of the other 2 stands any chance of beating them. But we know Force India won't win. And Renault won't win. And it's absolutely certain that McLaren and Williams won't win, whether they're fielding a couple of pay drivers or possibly the best driver in the history of the sport.
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  • sinbaadisinbaadi Frets: 807
    F1 is all about the cars.  Cars don't change often enough for variation of any significance on a race by race basis to make any difference, so what you get at the start of the season usually is maintained throughout. 

    The season is one long test to see who had built the best car this year.  Nothing more.

    Why we expect anything more from it I have no idea, but we love the idea of parity in a sport whose signature is technical development and disparity.


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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1643
    I think my point isn't that we should try and bring back the levels of random engine blowups of old, but that element of "will my guy get a surprise result" has been lost. 

    On any given match day in the premier league there are 20 teams playing 10 matches, and even the likes of Southampton or West Ham have a chance of beating a Man City or Chelsea, and certainly have a chance of scoring goals even if they don't win. Obviously we all know it's unlikely, but you don't know for sure that the better team will always win.  

    We've lost that in F1 - we know that every race this year will likely be won by one of 3 teams, and no midfield cars will be above 5th place. And for each given track we usually know by the end of Friday which single team is most likely to take the win, and which of the other 2 stands any chance of beating them. But we know Force India won't win. And Renault won't win. And it's absolutely certain that McLaren and Williams won't win, whether they're fielding a couple of pay drivers or possibly the best driver in the history of the sport.
    It's been like this since the mid 1980s.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10837
    Garthy said:
    F1 has always been like this. Witness Alonso and Raikkonen pissing past people in Suzuka 2005 for example.

    There has always been a gulf in performance between the top three and the mid field, hell there's been seasons where there has been a gulf between the top two and the rest or even a single team:




    I know the gulf has been there. Generally in the BTCC in the 1990's you'd get one team that walked away with it but the racing behind was very good. F1 doesn't really have that. 


    sinbaadi said:
    F1 is all about the cars.  Cars don't change often enough for variation of any significance on a race by race basis to make any difference, so what you get at the start of the season usually is maintained throughout. 

    The season is one long test to see who had built the best car this year.  Nothing more.

    Why we expect anything more from it I have no idea, but we love the idea of parity in a sport whose signature is technical development and disparity.


    Yeah, I get that. I freely admit it's just me and F1. We don't really jive at the minute. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 9036
    Garthy said:
    I think my point isn't that we should try and bring back the levels of random engine blowups of old, but that element of "will my guy get a surprise result" has been lost. 

    On any given match day in the premier league there are 20 teams playing 10 matches, and even the likes of Southampton or West Ham have a chance of beating a Man City or Chelsea, and certainly have a chance of scoring goals even if they don't win. Obviously we all know it's unlikely, but you don't know for sure that the better team will always win.  

    We've lost that in F1 - we know that every race this year will likely be won by one of 3 teams, and no midfield cars will be above 5th place. And for each given track we usually know by the end of Friday which single team is most likely to take the win, and which of the other 2 stands any chance of beating them. But we know Force India won't win. And Renault won't win. And it's absolutely certain that McLaren and Williams won't win, whether they're fielding a couple of pay drivers or possibly the best driver in the history of the sport.
    It's been like this since the mid 1980s.
    Yeah.. not really. It's only in the last 15 years or so that the reliability thing has been such a massive part of winning. Before Schumacher's 5-year run at Ferrari it was far more common to see engines blowing up, and hence a load more drivers and teams having a shot at the podium over a season. 

    The most extreme was probably 1982 - you had 11 different winners over only 16 races. And 18 (EIGHTEEN!) drivers from 10 teams shared the podium spots. Sure in a year like '88 you had ridiculous domination by McLaren, at the very front, but still 10 guys from 8 teams getting podiums in your 16 races.

    This year we're roughly halfway through our 21 races, have so far had 4 winners, and a total of 7 guys from 4 teams on the podium. At most we might hit 8 drivers from 5 teams by the end of the year if Sainz or Hulkenberg finally get a proper result for Renault.

    I know that pace has always tended to lead to 2-by-2 results when cars aren't breaking down, but at least in the past you knew something *might* happen to get one of the midfield a great result and give us an underdog with a fighting chance.
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