True Temperament Neck

ToneControl

I'm planning to buy one of these

Anyone played one?

viz

Mr Vai I believe

let us know how you get on. It's a great website by the way - all that info about tunings.

Fortheloveofguitar

viz;400265" said:

Mr Vai I believe



let us know how you get on. It's a great website by the way - all that info about tunings.

There is a video of Vai doing a demo. Worth checking out.

mart

I guess they must work really well if you play every song in the same key.

viz

There are key sets that work - there are 3 or 4 choices, plus yes I'm sure you can spec one that works perfectly for a single key to the detriment of others.

Phil_aka_Pip

yet another GAS excuse - I need all these guitars to be able to play in any key

Fortheloveofguitar

Standard tuner is no good either. They look great but over £500 is a little steep.

jpfamps

I've played one (it was in for repair in a friend workshop).

It was very weird, although the tuning is noticeably better.

String bending feels very odd, and I dread to think how much a refret would cost...........

ThePrettyDamned

No idea why you have a "lol" mate.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

jpfamps;400789" said:

I've played one (it was in for repair in a friend workshop).

It was very weird, although the tuning is noticeably better.

String bending feels very odd, and I dread to think how much a refret would cost...........

Depends on whether you want semi hemi demi phlegmy frets or not.

Cabicular

I'm firmly located in the "for fuck sake" camp on this one...
Since I have never found it to be a significant problem and no one I know or respect as a player has bothered their arse then there are almost always bigger problems that need fixing

xmrchi

I agree with the above, if your are worried that much about intonation then take up the oboe,

Straight frets work, and have worked for over 300 years, plus I have never listened to an album and thought "ooh that guitar needs to be intonated"

Snake oil to me, plus it looks like my daughter has drawn all over a guitar neck!

ROOG

mrchi said:

...... plus it looks like my daughter has drawn all over a guitar neck!

Looks like its melted a bit.

Mind you, I hadn't realised that it warranted that much adjustment in the frets.

 

ToneControl

We have a few scripts that we seem run through on this board:

Someone posts: I think I will buy some latest FX or amp sim gadget that is not a 1950s valve design
others post:
I have one, it's great
I don't like that one
it's overpriced
I prefer valve amps
etc

Whereas, strangely to my mind, when someone posts: I think I will buy some latest guitar that challenges 1950s designs
others post stuff like:
Guitars work fine without this new feature
This is not needed
It does not work
It's a con
Any issues with tuning or intonation are irrelevant, it's the attitude in the playing that matters more (i.e. the punk ethos)

Why are people so comfortable about new ideas for amps and FX, but so conservative about guitars?

ToneControl

mrchi said:

I agree with the above, if your are worried that much about intonation then take up the oboe,

Straight frets work, and have worked for over 300 years, plus I have never listened to an album and thought "ooh that guitar needs to be intonated"

Snake oil to me, plus it looks like my daughter has drawn all over a guitar neck!

Not sure about the oboe, surely any instrument with fixed pitch notes will have to select a temperament that will inevitably not work well for some scales?

Lutes had movable frets before and after 300 years ago, to address this exact issue
Some days a few chords sound really out of tune for me on guitars, other days it is not so prominent for me

Personal tolerance for intonation and temperament issues varies from person to person. As I've stated before, I do not believe that being unable to detect or notice this is any kind of advantage for a musician. A bit like a more accurate sense of taste/smell is essential for a wine maker, but admittedly possibly a costly burden for a wine drinker

Here's some non-guitar examples of the effects of temperament:


see if you agree with the person who made this video

ToneControl

Cabicular said:

I'm firmly located in the "for fuck sake" camp on this one...
Since I have never found it to be a significant problem and no one I know or respect as a player has bothered their arse then there are almost always bigger problems that need fixing

  Bigger problems than the scale sounding in tune?

ToneControl

jpfamps said:

I've played one (it was in for repair in a friend workshop).

It was very weird, although the tuning is noticeably better.

String bending feels very odd, and I dread to think how much a refret would cost...........

Never had to refret any guitar, even my #1 I 've had since 1984

I'm keen to experience playing this, but obviously don't expect it to work for all circumstances

My perspective is to have different guitars for different purposes, and different tunings for that matter

viz

ToneControl said:

mrchi said:

I agree with the above, if your are worried that much about intonation then take up the oboe,

Straight frets work, and have worked for over 300 years, plus I have never listened to an album and thought "ooh that guitar needs to be intonated"

Snake oil to me, plus it looks like my daughter has drawn all over a guitar neck!

Not sure about the oboe, surely any instrument with fixed pitch notes will have to select a temperament that will inevitably not work well for some scales?

Lutes had movable frets before and after 300 years ago, to address this exact issue
Some days a few chords sound really out of tune for me on guitars, other days it is not so prominent for me

Personal tolerance for intonation and temperament issues varies from person to person. As I've stated before, I do not believe that being unable to detect or notice this is any kind of advantage for a musician. A bit like a more accurate sense of taste/smell is essential for a wine maker, but admittedly possibly a costly burden for a wine drinker

Here's some non-guitar examples of the effects of temperament:


see if you agree with the person who made this video

Re oboe, yes and indeed it's not only the issue of the notes being fixed, because fixed, equal temperament does give an equally reasonable approximation for all keys (see piano) - it's also the fact that the pitches are based on the fundamental resonance of the instrument, so are better in the fundamental key than in others. I agree TT frets may be pointless and even detrimental (eg bending), but it is nevertheless a very interesting concept and I'm sure it does get rid of some of those odd sounding tones on the G or B strings - we've probably become inured to them but a true temp guitar could open our ear(s) to pure tones again. I'd love to try one and hear for myself.

Paul_C

As someone who fits the Buzz Feiten system to guitars, I'd imagine this fits into a similar category - if standard tuning is not enough for you then it's a worthwhile change, if the subtle change this and the BF system introduces makes very little difference to your ear then it's probably not worth bothering with.

As it says in the FAQ:

"What happens when True Temperament guitars are used with other guitars, bass, piano etc?
Our THIDELL FORMULA 1™ temperament works just fine together with “ordinary” instruments. The offsets from Equal Temper are not so severe that they normally create dissonance.

So the changes are there if you listen carefully, but aren't so obvious that playing alongside a 50s Strat you can hear a dissonance between the two.

Also if the points on the frets (that the strings vibrate from) need to be so precise then any significant fret wear will move the point of string vibration, so that will have to be dealt with regularly to be sure it's still in perfect playing order. I also know from countless setups on guitars that with a very accurate tuner it's quite possible to sharpen or flatten a note with very little finger movement, so to make the most of this your technique would need to be very good, or any sloppy finger placement might negate the change the fret has made. I'd also imagine a smooth bend would sound interesting, but I've never encountered such a neck, so have no experience.

I have known people to be overjoyed with the change the Buzz Feiten system can make to a guitar, so if you have an ear for such subtle changes I'm sure this neck would also be a great improvement over standard necks. However most people (and I include myself in this) don't hear the imperfections quite so clearly, and wouldn't need the improvement this provides.

So my feeling with this innovation is that for me, the extra hassle it introduces out weighs the benefits it brings.

digitalscream

ToneControl said:

Why are people so comfortable about new ideas for amps and FX, but so conservative about guitars?

Because almost every single "innovation" in the instrument is at best pointless, and at worst actually detrimental to playing it.

The thing with true temperament is that...yes, it would help, on the assumption that you never do any of the other things which cause just as much of a deviation in pitch - like hitting the strings a bit harder on some notes than others, or using too much pressure (by varying degrees) on the frets, or bending the strings a little when you fret them etc.

To my mind, it's all of these things and the lack of perfect intonation that gives the guitar its unique sound. Removing that seems to me to be somewhat counter-productive.

However...if you're going to get TT frets and you're worried about a refret, just specify the frets to be stainless steel - they'll pretty much last forever, thus avoiding the issue.

frankus

ToneControl said:

We have a few scripts that we seem run through on this board:

Yep - Scripted behaviour, it's not just this forum.

Whereas, strangely to my mind, when someone posts: I think I will buy some latest guitar that challenges 1950s designs
others post stuff like:
Guitars work fine without this new feature
This is not needed
It does not work
It's a con
Any issues with tuning or intonation are irrelevant, it's the attitude in the playing that matters more (i.e. the punk ethos)

Why are people so comfortable about new ideas for amps and FX, but so conservative about guitars?

1) Not invented here - anyone investing enough time learning at things fears that being overturned.
2) Static mindset - some people believe their achievements define them not their ability to adapt.
3) Whilst it's massively undervalued - we really do decide a lot based on touch and changes to that frighten some people.
4) The disbelief that we'd settle for anything less than the ideal solution. (sort of acknowledges our own eventual redundancy).

Ultimately it boils down to one thing "what if I can't change" ... pretty much everything that gets piled on top of that is a discount of some sort: discount the existance of the stimulii - "I can't hear a difference" ... the significance of the stimulii - "I can hear a difference but it's not going to make a difference", the possibility for change "it'll never take off so I won't bother with it" and the possibility for personal change "I'd never be able to use it"...

It is scripted and, as you indicate, it's predictable and because of that, for the most part it's not authentic, people are feeling something and running away from that feeling... and burying why they're running away from it, especially from themselves, then the brain's interpreter kicks in and says "you don't like that, let me think of about 20 reasons you don't like that" and a false rationale is created.

I didn't like playing modelling guitars because it scared the crap out of me, it sounded more authentic than I did, but I still felt it sounded false... so what did that say about my playing? These days I think modelling guitars are good for the stock sounds I think of as cliched but are exactly the sounds I like in the guitar.. because a lot of my playing is cliched - partly because I practise stuff lots and it mioght not sound as fresh or original to me now.

EricTheWeary

If there is no dissonance with a 50's strat ( or with keys,etc) I am struggling to see the point ( fairly sure I couldn't hear the point). However, like a lot of GAS, if it makes things better for the player then ultimately it's better for the listener.