True Temperament Neck

impmann

Some interesting videos - I can hear what the guy is on about with the acoustic, but find myself thinking "well, yes, but that's what an A chord sounds like on a guitar and that's why Townsend never plays the thirds". 

A colleague is very into playing "piano voiced" chords on the guitar and I guess he'd love all this. I can definitely see what is trying to be achieved and I can hear the difference... but I don't feel its a problem for me personally. I think I'd have more trouble finding my way around a fretboard with frets that look like they've been installed by a Salvador Dali...

Paul_C

ToneControl said:

Paul_C said:

ToneControl said:

you can't flatten a note by bending a string

side to side, no, but if you apply tension along the length of the string with your finger you can sharpen or flatten a note, like a violinist does for vibrato. By placing your finger onto the string in a particular way you can do this quite easily, enough for a tuner like my Peterson VSII to see the note as slightly sharp or flat.

but you can't make it flatter than the plain fretted note, unless you slacken the string with the trem

yes, you can.

ToneControl

Paul_C said:

ToneControl said:

Paul_C said:

ToneControl said:

you can't flatten a note by bending a string

side to side, no, but if you apply tension along the length of the string with your finger you can sharpen or flatten a note, like a violinist does for vibrato. By placing your finger onto the string in a particular way you can do this quite easily, enough for a tuner like my Peterson VSII to see the note as slightly sharp or flat.

but you can't make it flatter than the plain fretted note, unless you slacken the string with the trem

yes, you can.

are you talking about dragging the string away from the bridge?

I thought violin players rolled their fingertip so as to actual change the operating length of string

Paul_C

yes, I mistakenly thought that was implied when I said apply tension, something that's quite easy to do just by placing the finger on the string

ToneControl

so you can reduce the pitch of a fretted note by applying tension with your finger?

Paul_C

yes, I'm sure you could too, maybe not enough to hear the change clearly, but enough to register on a reasonably accurate tuner.

ICBM

You can hear it, although it's subtle. Classical guitarists do it - presumably because they borrowed the technique from violinists, but it still works with frets. It's more effective on nylon strings, but it does work a little on steel strings too.

Phil_aka_Pip

@ToneControl that video describes my "tuning problems spot on". Equally Tempered major 3rds are always way too sharp and perfect 5ths are a bit flat.

ToneControl

Paul_C said:

yes, I'm sure you could too, maybe not enough to hear the change clearly, but enough to register on a reasonably accurate tuner.

you mean as part of vibrato, or actually lowering the pitch of a note in a chord?

ToneControl

ok, I'll explain my motive

I'd like to play and hear a guitar with a temperament more closely matched to specific pieces of music. Think of it like a keyboard player using a different temperament to play a specific piece written in 1600

My approach to guitars is that each one of them does not have to do everything and play every piece. I dedicate some to specific tunings, some are set up as baritone guitars in a way that means they cannot be used for general use (e.g. tuned to a much lower version of DADGAD), or my tenor guitar, tuned in fifths. I am planning to string a normal acoustic in fifths if possible

I have an underlying belief that, at least some of the time, the pieces I play on guitar should flow from the strengths of the specific instrument, the way it resonates and the strengths of the tuning used. I expect this to be different on each guitar if I remember to not buy duplicates without changing something

randomhandclaps

frankus said:

I am psychoanalysing nothing. I wish people would stop saying that because I class psychoanalysts a little above paedophiles so you can imagine how unpleasant it is to me, to be compared to one.

Seems to me like your flagrant dislike of psychoanalysts may being masking a deeper discontent, perhaps with the bread selections available in your local retail outlets.

axisus

I had a bad temperament neck, but unfortunately I broke it in anger.

frankus

randomhandclaps said:

frankus said:

I am psychoanalysing nothing. I wish people would stop saying that because I class psychoanalysts a little above paedophiles so you can imagine how unpleasant it is to me, to be compared to one.

Seems to me like your flagrant dislike of psychoanalysts may being masking a deeper discontent, perhaps with the bread selections available in your local retail outlets.

That "spelt bread incident" was a very long time ago, at that time I believed only school teachers could have that many facial warts, hence my reaction.

Paul_C

ToneControl said:

Paul_C said:

yes, I'm sure you could too, maybe not enough to hear the change clearly, but enough to register on a reasonably accurate tuner.

you mean as part of vibrato, or actually lowering the pitch of a note in a chord?

If I plug a guitar into my VS-II and place my finger on the string at, for example, the 12th fret I can not only sharpen or flatten the note whilst holding the string against the fret, but it also takes quite a gentle touch when applying finger to string to not sharpen or flatten the held note, depending on which direction the finger falls onto the string from. As I said, this is not enough to be heard (though if taken to extreme it can be) but it does show that every note you play has the potential, even with one of those true temperament necks set up absolutely perfectly, to be slightly sharp or flat.

If you also consider that worn or sweat and dirt coated strings will also begin to be slightly out in regard to intonation, and you soon see that almost every note is compromised every time it's played.

That's not to say that we shouldn't strive for perfection, but I still feel that the true temperament neck is a solution that adds too many failings of its own in regard to maintenance and bending notes to be considered a success.

Regardless of that, like the Buzz Feiten tuning system, if it works for you and the cost to you is value for money then that's ok with me

ToneControl

Paul_C said:

ToneControl said:

Paul_C said:

yes, I'm sure you could too, maybe not enough to hear the change clearly, but enough to register on a reasonably accurate tuner.

you mean as part of vibrato, or actually lowering the pitch of a note in a chord?

If I plug a guitar into my VS-II and place my finger on the string at, for example, the 12th fret I can not only sharpen or flatten the note whilst holding the string against the fret, but it also takes quite a gentle touch when applying finger to string to not sharpen or flatten the held note, depending on which direction the finger falls onto the string from. As I said, this is not enough to be heard (though if taken to extreme it can be) but it does show that every note you play has the potential, even with one of those true temperament necks set up absolutely perfectly, to be slightly sharp or flat.

If you also consider that worn or sweat and dirt coated strings will also begin to be slightly out in regard to intonation, and you soon see that almost every note is compromised every time it's played.

That's not to say that we shouldn't strive for perfection, but I still feel that the true temperament neck is a solution that adds too many failings of its own in regard to maintenance and bending notes to be considered a success.

Regardless of that, like the Buzz Feiten tuning system, if it works for you and the cost to you is value for money then that's ok with me

ok, so you are saying that no guitar will ever be perfect - especially when played by a human, I agree. To be right, the 3rd needs to flatten 14 cents, so that would be a large pitch change

I'm looking for a different sound to equal temperament, and accept some different inaccuracies can occur (although I will use with an Evertune bridge, so less so in this case)

ToneControl

an interesting example of issues with temperament, from a keyboard perspective:

viz

@tonecontrol - check out quarter comma. By the way, the guitar isn't equal temperament - you are playing different temperaments when you move across the strings. It's only even tempered if you play 1 string only.

mart

ToneControl said:

ok, I'll explain my motive

I'd like to play and hear a guitar with a temperament more closely matched to specific pieces of music. ....

My approach to guitars is that each one of them does not have to do everything and play every piece. ....

Ah ok, in that case a true temperament neck would be perfect for you.

What bothers me about the TT neck is there is always so much advertising bullshit which sounds attractive but contradicts the basic mathematics that underpins tuning. I'll admit I haven't read all of the TT we pages, but I'd be very surprised if there was one that said honestly that this will make your guitar sound great in one key, and truly awful in most other keys.

Unfortunately the average punter is going to get taken in by that. I'm glad to hear that you are not.

And as for the thing about bending a string to get a lower note - if you've got wonky frets, like on TT, won't there be some positions where bending in the right direction pushes the string to a bit where the fret is closer to the neck, and so might lead to a lower note?

viz

They do stress that point, and they list the keys it will work for and those which it won't. At least they used to, haven't checked recently.

ThePrettyDamned

ToneControl;403046" said:

Paul_C said:



ToneControl said:

Paul_C said:

yes, I'm sure you could too, maybe not enough to hear the change clearly, but enough to register on a reasonably accurate tuner.










you mean as part of vibrato, or actually lowering the pitch of a note in a chord?










If I plug a guitar into my VS-II and place my finger on the string at, for example, the 12th fret I can not only sharpen or flatten the note whilst holding the string against the fret, but it also takes quite a gentle touch when applying finger to string to not sharpen or flatten the held note, depending on which direction the finger falls onto the string from. As I said, this is not enough to be heard (though if taken to extreme it can be) but it does show that every note you play has the potential, even with one of those true temperament necks set up absolutely perfectly, to be slightly sharp or flat.



If you also consider that worn or sweat and dirt coated strings will also begin to be slightly out in regard to intonation, and you soon see that almost every note is compromised every time it's played.



That's not to say that we shouldn't strive for perfection, but I still feel that the true temperament neck is a solution that adds too many failings of its own in regard to maintenance and bending notes to be considered a success.



Regardless of that, like the Buzz Feiten tuning system, if it works for you and the cost to you is value for money then that's ok with me










ok, so you are saying that no guitar will ever be perfect - especially when played by a human, I agree. To be right, the 3rd needs to flatten 14 cents, so that would be a large pitch change



I'm looking for a different sound to equal temperament, and accept some different inaccuracies can occur (although I will use with an Evertune bridge, so less so in this case)

You've got an evertune guitar right? How do you find it, playing and sound wise? They look neat, and I like the idea of a super solid rhythm guitar ie not accidental bends when going nuts