Gibson neck breaks

ICBM

richardhomer said:

In fairness a Martin acoustic would break in exactly the same way - back pitched headstocks are a very well established part of guitar design - it isn't a peculiarity of Gibson.

Yes, but it takes much more force because Martins have a lower headstock angle and no truss rod cavity. You do see Martins with broken headstocks occasionally.

The difference is that you probably see more Gibsons with broken headstocks than *all other brands put together*. It's not about whether an angled headstock is a poor design or not, even in mahogany - it's that Gibson's take on it is about an order of magnitude worse than anyone else's - unnecessarily so.

richardhomer

^ Your average high end acoustic probably get treated rather better than a lot of electrics do too....

ICBM

richardhomer said:

Your average high end acoustic probably get treated rather better than a lot of electrics do too....

Not sure about that having seen the way folkies treat them!

There's also another problem with Les Pauls in particular - they're so heavy that the inertia of the whole guitar puts a lot more stress on the headstock if it hits anything. Acoustics are much lighter.

But still, when you see a cross-section of a Gibson neck showing how short the grain is across the angled part and how much of it is removed by the truss rod cavity, it's no mystery why they're so weak. It's really surprising that anyone would think it was an acceptably strong design.

On the other hand this is the same company that originally designed the double-cut LP Special with the pickup so close to the fingerboard that there's only about half an inch of endgrain wood holding the neck on. SGs aren't much better either!

chrisj1602

I take better care of the Gibson's I've had than the Fenders, my Tele is on my rug now and my little boy is pissing about with it, whereas my Les Paul is in its case when I'm not using it. Same at gigs, I make sure the LP is safe, but the Strat or Tele can be lent against an amp or in a corner.

impmann

A Tele can survive a hissy fit and being slung at a rehearsal room wall... My SG would not have survived.

And there is the deal - if you play an SG or a Double Cut LP Special, you look after them differently to a Fender. If not, they break. End of.

If you really feel strongly about this, why not write to Gibson showing them pics of the Feline upgrade. Even if you don't get anywhere this time, there is more potential for change and improvement than keep writing the same things in the same forum (look up Einstein's definition of insanity). Eventually, if enough people keep the pressure up things change - and if it means that much to you, then good luck to you.

The above isn't meant as a snipe - it's an observation about this and a few topics that come up time and again on here. Writing on here will change nothing - writing to the manufacturer, whilst not instantly successful, has more potential for change.

meltedbuzzbox

there is no sense in contacting the manufacturers with suggestions or complaints. 

Its much better to post multiple threads on here berating the same things over and over again whilst passing off your opinion as fact. You get bonus points if you can throw in speculative figures about things you have read on other reliable forums like TGP. 

:-P

streethawk

Moe_Zambeek said:

Remember the Alex Lifeson sig 335 debacle? Gibson put a volute on them, but in the wrong place good old custom shop luthiery...

Yup. Remarkable.

Bogwhoppit

chrisj1602 said:

Tele is on my rug now and my little boy is pissing about with it,

Careful, water and electricity shouldn't be mixed

FelineGuitars

We build with a 3 piece neck with the grain alligned in a quartersawn orientation (as much as possible) for both strength and sonic reasons.

• The stiffness of a quartersawn construction gives a quicker response to quick tansient notes.
  
• The 3 piece build style should interupt the "whiplash" of a blow to the guitar from tearing itself acoss the woods grainline, and I believe it is the whiplash effect rather than the initial strike that completes the damage. 
  
• Gibson necks do break at the weakest point where the very short grain runs out onto the headstock.
  

As discussed the large recess for truss rod adjustment and lack of extra wood via a volute do make for the perfect conditions for a head break. 

A scarf jointed neck will be much harder to break prvided the joint isn't right at the weak pint as the grain runs parallell to the headstock in that section.

One of the reasons that maple necks break less is that the grain in maple is made of much longer strands, and you get fewer junction points of grain strands in a localised area (which is why a maple break is characterised by longer more splintery fibres)

Voxman

I appreciate opinions are divided on this but personally I could never see myself buying a Gibson which had a headstock repair, regardless of how well it had been done. Knocks and dints don't bother me, but for me a headstock break is just a bridge too far. I'd just feel I was playing with damaged goods, and resale would be badly affected.

Possibly if I saw a headstock repaired custom shop 59 les paul in honeyburst going ludicrously cheap, I might think about it.

richardhomer

Voxman;437837" said:

I'd just feel I was playing with damaged goods, and resale would be badly affected.

Precisely! As I posted earlier in the thread, a headstock repair enabled me to buy my genuine '64 335 - which was a dream guitar - for reissue money.

If I ever sold it, I'd probably make money on it.

underdog

As long as the price reflected it and the repair was good, I'd have no issues with buying a headstock repaired guitar.

stickyfiddle

Voxman said:

I appreciate opinions are divided on this but personally I could never see myself buying a Gibson which had a headstock repair, regardless of how well it had been done. Knocks and dints don't bother me, but for me a headstock break is just a bridge too far. I'd just feel I was playing with damaged goods, and resale would be badly affected.

Possibly if I saw a headstock repaired custom shop 59 les paul in honeyburst going ludicrously cheap, I might think about it.

I used to feel that way until I took a punt an SG. It's one of the best guitars I've ever played and I won't ever sell it. Only 400 quids!!

ICBM

Yes, re-resale value is affected, exactly because your potential buyer also doesn't want a guitar with a repaired break, and knows that *his* future buyer won't, etc - but only for that reason, basically "fear of fear itself".

A proper repair is stronger than the unbroken neck was - even when not done absolutely perfectly, check out that Feline thread again and you'll see that the final break before they rebuilt it did not go through the previous repair, the wood shattered elsewhere.

If more people understood that a proper repair actually improves the strength, and that the value can't then fall any further even if it somehow did get broken again because it's already 'taken the hit', what's not to like? You get a stronger guitar for less money. If you buy into it at the right price, you won't lose anything and you stand less chance of having to pay for a repair...

I've owned several Gibsons with repaired headstocks, and never sold one at a loss - and a couple at substantial profits. I'd happily buy one again.

HAL9000

Pyroman said:

  I'm guessing the reasoning behind Gibson sticking with the original problematic design, is that when they do attempt to fix it, the vintage purists scream bloody murder.

  I own 2 Gibsons, and 2 Epiphones, all with Mahogany necks.  Love em, but esp in the case of my Firebird- I'm afraid to take it out of the house! 

I seem to recall reading that Gibson did indeed reduce the headstock/neck angle to 14 degrees some years ago and you're absolutely right; the purists screamed blue murder.

Bucket

I don't understand how Gibson have managed to change everything else over the years except the one biggest issue with pretty much all their designs. If I had my cynical hat on, I'd wonder if it was planned obsolescence because they know people will still come back...

This is me speaking as a Gibson owner who would have serious reservations about gigging his Flying V in case it got broken.

I don't smash my guitars about like Pete Townshend or whatever, but I think an electric guitar should be able to take a knock or several.

p90fool

Bucket;439385" said:

This is me speaking as a Gibson owner who would have serious reservations about gigging his Flying V in case it got broken.

Seriously?

ICBM

Seriously me too. I would have reservations about gigging with a valuable Gibson with a mahogany neck that hasn't been broken and repaired already. I've just seen so many that I know it's a significant risk.

I have gigged with Gibsons - my '57 LP Junior which had never been broken but clearly had an unusually strong neck because the top edge of the headstock looked like it had been used to demolish things, my '57 LP Special and '73 LP Deluxe both of which had previous repairs, and my Dove which has a maple neck. Possibly others, I can't remember. But it does make me think hard about them as a possible gigging guitar.

Partly it is because of the potential loss of value, but mostly it's because I try to avoid taking a spare guitar to a gig if at all possible - I take strings and tools, and I can repair most likely potential electrical or hardware issues, but a broken headstock is a show-stopper.

I try to choose all my gigging gear for reliability first and foremost, so a guitar which has an inherent weakness compared to others which do a similar job is not an ideal candidate.

hobbio

I'd consider a broken-necked Gibson but the price would have be low and the repair perfect.

LastMantra

I suppose if you own a guitar that you wouldn't use for fear of breaking it's no longer an instrument it's a conversation piece.