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What are the differences between budget and high end pickups?

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There are lot's of discussions about Bareknuckle this and Iron Gear that.

Where does a budget pickup fall down and a top end pickup sound glorious?

I have to honestly say that I have trouble telling the differences quality wise and to be honest, one of my fave pickups is the HB from an older model Pacifica 112!

Is it all down to the ears of the beholder and we've just convinced ourselves that higher price = better tone??
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Comments

  • underdogunderdog Frets: 8334
    edited December 2014
    I'm not sure it's sound as such, a small UK builder probably winds by hand to some extent (on a basic machine) with parts they pay a reasonable price for.

    Out in China they are winding huge amounts on better machines, with parts they are getting for much less, so it shouldn't be a shock they can wind good pickups at a price point

    Where the small maker excels is the service, the bespoke tailoring, the likes of other BK and other big or boutique makers, well I think they're selling snake oil myself.
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  • rossirossi Frets: 1699
    I think its more that the booteek winders will supply a specific sound ,output ,windings ,magnets  etc where as the cheaper ones are just generic and also no specific specs or quality control .While they may well sound great as Toneriders certainly do ,it may well not be the sound you have in mind.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    Most of the hand-wound pickups I've heard have a more open and lively sound, more detail and character. This is probably because technically they're *less* well-made! A perfect machine-wound coil can sound good, but often sounds 'too perfect' as well, if that makes sense.

    Cheaper machine-wound pickups tend to sound flat and characterless, often not helped by using ceramic magnets which need much more care to get good tone out of (it can be done, but is not usually). Ceramic with a relatively low wind is almost always a poor combination.

    I have to admit that despite a lot of people seeming to like them, I haven't liked any of the cheaper far-east-made pickups I've heard - to me they all sound unsubtle and a bit lifeless.

    But - and I hope this doesn't sound contentious - I can't understand why anyone would spend so *little* on pickups for anything other than the cheapest possible guitar. The pickups are the heart and soul of the amplified sound, so to shy away from spending £50 to £100 per pickup for any guitar costing more than two or three hundred pounds seems silly to me… particularly when there are some extremely good hand-made pickups well within that range.

    I honestly don't hear much advantage in spending much more than that, though. Once you're into hand-maker territory it's purely a matter of who makes the exact pickup you like, not quality differences. The real advantages hand makers have is being able to fine-tune the 'formula', which is immensely complicated and hyper-sensitive to small differences.

    Just my opinion/experience - there are a couple of makers on here who know a lot more about pickups than I do :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9986
    tFB Trader

    ICBM said:
    Most of the hand-wound pickups I've heard have a more open and lively sound, more detail and character. This is probably because technically they're *less* well-made! A perfect machine-wound coil can sound good, but often sounds 'too perfect' as well, if that makes sense.
    Absolutely correct: the more 'open and scattered the winding pattern is the more the distributed capacitance of the coil is broken down, and the more the 'skin effect' of electron movement in copper wire is minimized. Both of these effects unchecked, filter treble and harmonic overtones out of the sound. Tighter, closer windings are great on a transformer ... not necessarily on an electromagnetic transducer (pickup).


    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • I am sure it would be possible to teach Asian Manufacturers to hand wind and probably with the lower labour costs it would still work out cheaper. What you will struggle is the knowledge of what they are doing and how wind and materials all contribute to a great pickup. 

    Most of the classic pickups in some way or another seem to be a happy accident due to constrained supply, changes in the supply chain or coil winding machines favouring a certain winding pattern.

    Most hand winders and smaller companies have studied and learned these happy accidents or developed their own signature as they know what sounds good in a pickup. 

    As much as some of the Asian companies are making good budget or mid priced brands at this point none of them are coming close to what you get out of an OCP, Fralin, BKP etc etc. 


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  • Tonerider pickups use CNC machinery to mimic hand-winding, which is why they sound far better than most lower-priced pickups.
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9986
    edited December 2014 tFB Trader
    Tonerider pickups use CNC machinery to mimic hand-winding, which is why they sound far better than most lower-priced pickups.
    As do very many other winders/companies who uses automated machinery ... and that includes some UK small manufacturers. The software is free and widely available ... and the machines are very affordable these days. 
    What CNC can't replicate is the changes to tension that a hand winder uses to put extra 'air' into a coil, or to put more wire into a pickup's 'sweet spot'.
    There are some pickups that sound better machine wound by the way ... ones that need tight windings and consistency. 
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • LoobsLoobs Frets: 3831
    A lot of it is psychoacoustics, I'm sure.
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 2316
    edited December 2014
    I believe some machine made pickups are scatterwound. plus even hand wounds usually are done with machine assistance? I have a mixture of boutique, mid range and stock pickups in my guitars, and have found that different guitars sound better with different pickups.  Personally I think its good to kiss lots of frogs with them and find ones you're happiest with, but don't assume expensive handwound is automatically going to sound better.

    For example I have a blade telecaster which had bare knuckle brown sugar pickups. I changed them out for tone rider hot classics and far prefer the tone riders in that guitar.   In an old Tokai breezy tele I had bk brown sugars and they sounded awesome, but just didn't suit the blade as much.


    In my Tokai springy sound strat I have had loads of high end pickups, bare knuckle, rio grande, Lindy fralin , bulldog, catswhisker, wizard, and others I've forgotten plus a bunch of cheaper makes.  I would say the favourite ones in there were from Kent Armstrong tweed tones, iron gear pig irons, and two bk slow hands with a wizard tweed tone in the middle position.    However I remeber putting the stock Tokai pickups back in once, and being blown away by how good they sounded.

    I also Remember swapping the full set of bk slowhands for some bk mother milks and not liking them much at all .
    Notable mentions go to some cheapies as well ie entwistle, axesrus. I wasn't wild on a set of tone rider Blues pups which didn't seem to suit that guitar.

    In my tokai jap  les Paul I've had Kent Armstrong and stock, both of which were fine but have put in some bk mules which sound superb.
    In my Gibson les Paul I've stuck stock although so far, they sound pretty good to my ear..

    In a blade rh2 strat I've stuck with the stock humbucker and middle pickup but changed the neck pickup to a oil city one( can't rememberthe name of it)..  I see no reason to change the other two cos they sound great, but like what ash did with the neck pup. I went with him as I wanted him to make a pickup which would work with the others but just give the neck a bit more oomph. He did it first time, and it's perfect.

    If you know what you want and you can describe it properly then the boutique guys should be able to make it,  and some of them are extremely helpful with it.    But there may well be a great set of cheaper  machine wound pickups that sound awesome.
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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    Don't think anyone has yet mentioned potting. Cheap pickups aren't always potted, or potted well. This means they can be more prone to becoming microphonic.
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 2316
    Most pickups are potted these days. However I thought that there was a train of thought that unpotted pickups sounded better...
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    thomasw88 said:
    Most pickups are potted these days. However I thought that there was a train of thought that unpotted pickups sounded better…
    My experience is that *lightly* potted pickups generally sound best. How light is light, that is the question! And where a smaller-scale hand maker again has the advantage. Even then it's probably tricky to get consistent.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16547
    I am happy for anyone who cant hear the difference.

    I used to use cheap pickups for budget reasons, and I still do fit them quite often.

    Just over 10 years ago I brought one BKP-91 for £70 to see what all the fuss was about. It was my first time using a "boutique" pickup brand that made standard designs. It was so good I stuck with them for most of the years after that.

    I have also used bulldog, catswhisker and recently ASL. And been happy with them all. I still have bulldogs , bkp's and Asl in my personal guitars.

    I have also used iron gear, tonerider, warmans and a few other budget brands I forget. Some have been good and I have been happy to fit them. But most are not for me.

    I have only had one bkp set that I didn't like and that was more my mistake for choosing badly. They found a new home in a guitar they suit much better, which I still have
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12648
    In my experience, *some* cheap pickups lack finesse. However, these sounds can be quite useful and I can understand why some really rate them.

    However, having heard the same guitar fitted with inexpensive pickups and then a set of UK-made, hand wound pickups... its like night and day. Perhaps the chap at the back of the pub may not spot the subtle differences, but I can.


    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • SNAKEBITESNAKEBITE Frets: 1075

    I don't doubt some of it is snobbery or a case of "The Emperors new clothes", but I have to say that some of it is probably down to a "Happy Accident".


    I could probably tell the difference between two pickups, I certainly can hear the difference between the three on my Strat, so I'm not that deaf, but could I tell the difference between a "quality" and a "budget" one?

    Maybe, quite likely, but is my favourite going to be the "quality" one?


    Once again it's probably all down to the player!

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  • Nah, definitely not my imagination.

    Comparing strat pickups, I have seen less of a difference (not tried my oil city set yet, but have compared bare knuckle strat pickups to Duncan ones and there wasn't a whole lot in it - vintage wind) but comparing, for example, a Duncan high output humbucker to a handwound high output humbucker is night and day - the hand wound sounds great clean, has loads of poke for drive, nice bass and a pretty even sound. Perhaps less good for some of the more extreme tones, where a more mid - harsh bright pickup is a good thing, but for most styles, much nicer.

    The Duncan I have doesn't really "do" clean because of this - it just sounds quite harsh, compared to the pretty hi-fi and balanced sound of the asl custom. It's a much more versatile pickup than you'd imagine because of this, yet is more than capable of handling modern metal.

    Is it because it's hand wound? Maybe, Ash has mentioned the importance of genuine scatter wiring. But it's also down to wire gauge, magnet selections etc and these are things that a hand builder can get absolutely spot on.

    Plus, when they're about the same price as a mass produced machine wound Duncan or dimarzio, why not get a bit of proper hand made luxury?
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9986
    edited December 2014 tFB Trader
    thomasw88 said:
    . I beleive some machine made pickups are scatterwound. plus even hand wounds usually are done with machine assistance?
    The problem here is that there is confusion about the term 'machine wound'.
    All commercially available pickups are wound on a machine ... full stop. In the case of a 'hand wound' pickup it is the wire feed that is done through the fingers of the pickup winder himself ... the machine simply turns the bobbin. This allows the winder to control exactly the pattern of wire 'lay' that he wants to produce a specific sound, and indeed vary the tension during a wind to produce different effects.
    Basic automated pickup winding machines simply use a screw drive and wire nozzle system to lay the wire perfectly evenly on the bobbin ... all at a preset tension. The turns are normally very close and don't overlap at extreme angles as in a 'hand wind' and thus the pickup produced can sound lacking in harmonic complexity. 

    The next level is the CNC machine that allows each layer of wind to be programmed in by the software. Winds produced by these can be very good indeed ... but they are only as good as the knowledge level of the programmer ... and they lack one vital dimension: the tension is always preset and is not varied in the wind. 
    Also in a factory CNC pickup, one scatter pattern tends to get used for everything that uses the same bobbin size, (I've pulled a few apart and checked)... whereas in my own workshop I will even vary the scatter and tension between two coils in the same humbucker to get different effects. This is often not economically viable for big manufacturers.


    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • koss59koss59 Frets: 845
    My new elilist Casino has extremely microphonic pickups and squeal like hell very easily. Do you think these could be potted without effecting the sound?
    Facebook.com/nashvillesounduk/
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  • MegiiMegii Frets: 1670
    I found this video - just interested in what he's doing, and how his winding technique might compare to the experts on this here forum. Afraid it's a half hour video, so don't feel you have to watch the whole thing. I guess that fact alone does illustrate one reason hand wound pickups are going to cost a bit more. I have bought my share of cheaper pickups I admit, and some of them have worked well for me, but I must say I am a believer in the benefits of hand wound.



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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9986
    edited December 2014 tFB Trader
    koss59 said:
    My new elilist Casino has extremely microphonic pickups and squeal like hell very easily. Do you think these could be potted without effecting the sound?
    Potting will always change the sound slightly ... whether you can hear/put up with that slight change is down to your ears. Is big factories they use vacuum potting machines that 'suck the wax into every nook and cranny of the pickup ... this is much faster than sitting by a potting bath for between 15 minutes ans an hour depending on the pickup as I do! It also changes the sound a lot ... whereas a light potting (as ICBM said earlier) doesn't. Most squeal comes not from loose wire ... but loose components ... keeper bars, shims, pickup covers. A light potting 'fixes' these without totally soaking the coils.

    And by the way, the video is pretty much how we make pickups at ASL/Oil City ... except 'Gloria' my pickup winding machine ... built from scratch by me ... is a lot less pretty than that one! Gloria is soon to be joined by another, commercially made, machine to allow Katie and I to wind at the same time!
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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