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What are the differences between budget and high end pickups?

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  • JeremiahJeremiah Frets: 629
    I seem to remember that Seymour Duncan has gone on record saying that he thinks humbuckers sound better when wound by machine but single coils sound better hand wound.

    Also, weren't the winding machines used by Gibson in the 50s a bit old and worn out and so tended to produce some randomness and "scatter" winding unintentionally, leading to unpredictable variations in the sound?
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  • I find the current pickup market amazing.  Around 15-20 years ago I tended to feel that the pickup ranges available for me to buy were either cheap shit or expensive big name brands.  Maybe due to the lack of internet to spread the word on other choices or for smaller makers to promote themselves.

    The range now is amazing in not only what you can get, but the value and what you can get custom made.  Even cheap pickups circa £15-£25 are perfectly serviceable and far better than cheap pickups of old and then what you can get from the likes of Ash @ Oil City and Mojo pickups for £40-£50 astounds me. 

    This is very much a personal opinion (isn't everything gear related?) but as much as I have liked several of the Bare Knuckles I have tried I personally would not pay the step up in price between those and the aforementioned Oil City and Mojo.  You could argue until you are blue in the face about which is better and why but for me it's similar to the Pete Cornish pedal thread in that I do not believe 2-3 times the price means 2-3 times better performance or quality, if even justifiably better at all, which isn't my opinion.  However if it makes you feel better about your guitar, better about your playing and that bit of extra 'mojo' then go for it.

    My muse is not a horse and art is not a race.
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  • ISTR that the Gibson machines tended to wind coils that were quite humpy so more windings at the top or bottom. This was due to either poor setting up or wear in the machine arms. 

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    Hence there is no one right pickup and all the variations you find is the whole reason why the after market pickups exists, that and at the time Gibson and Fender had forgotten how to make them like they used to.

    I have to agree with the previous post BKP have moved their prices inline with the bigger US boutique guys in recent years also I think as they are no longer selling totally to the end user and sell through select stores they need a retailer margin in the equation which I dont remember back in the day.

    I think we are lucky to have OCP and MOJO selling direct at what are great prices for a handwound pickups.

    Once you go beyond OCP/MOJO level the stratospheric price jump to a point north of 500 bucks is really for those that can tell the difference. Although that said these guys have spent forever researching minute details such as metal and magnet composition and all sort of esoteric stuff to better understand and replicate the best PAF's. 

    I am sure with the right rumours, talk of a year long waiting list you could 1000$ + for PAF's clones in the US. :-)


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  • hobbiohobbio Frets: 3440

    I am sure with the right rumours, talk of a year long waiting list you could 1000$ + for PAF's clones in the US. :-)


    Made in the same way with the same materials as OCP stuff :D

    People will unfortunately pay a premium for bullshit.

    electric proddy probe machine

    My trading feedback thread

     

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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9983
    edited December 2014 tFB Trader


    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9983
    tFB Trader
    Part of the reason old PAF coils were randomly shaped was that the old 'Lesona' machines were worn to hell and kept slipping cogs ... and partly that where the hookup wire pigtail sits on the first layer of windings throws the coil 'off' to one side or the other! Old Fender coils tend to be more evenly shaped as they were hand 'laid' without an auto wire traverse. This meant the operators saw when a coil was going wonkey and built up more wire on the other side to correct it. This unintentionally caused yet more scatter in the windings!
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • imaloneimalone Frets: 748
    hobbio said:

    I am sure with the right rumours, talk of a year long waiting list you could 1000$ + for PAF's clones in the US. :-)


    Made in the same way with the same materials as OCP stuff :D

    People will unfortunately pay a premium for bullshit.
    There are some of these people who are getting their magnets made to their own recipes, not sure if OCP does that or not.
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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700

    I find (at least to my ear) that different makers have their own sound.

    I've always liked DiMarzio's, but (usually) find Duncans a bit meh (even though I have a Duncan in my Jackson)

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16543
    WezV said:
    I am happy for anyone who cant hear the difference.

    I used to use cheap pickups for budget reasons, and I still do fit them quite often.

    Just over 10 years ago I brought one BKP-91 for £70 to see what all the fuss was about. It was my first time using a "boutique" pickup brand that made standard designs. It was so good I stuck with them for most of the years after that.

    I have also used bulldog, catswhisker and recently ASL. And been happy with them all. I still have bulldogs , bkp's and Asl in my personal guitars.

    I have also used iron gear, tonerider, warmans and a few other budget brands I forget. Some have been good and I have been happy to fit them. But most are not for me.

    I have only had one bkp set that I didn't like and that was more my mistake for choosing badly. They found a new home in a guitar they suit much better, which I still have


    I got a lol for that, but can't see a psot where someone clarifies what exactly is funny about it?  Guess it must be a random click

     

    Basically I have used a lot of different pickup makes over the years but i still find myself more than happy to hand over the cash for hand made in the UK stuff.   I wouldn't be if it made no difference.

     

    takes capacitors as an example.   After doing tests i realised i didn't need to spend silly money on vintage spec PIO stuff, but i still preferred working with orange drops or similar and found them more consistant in stated value  than dirt cheap ceramic discs.  From my real world experience of all price points (including real NOS capacitors) I decided I was happy to pay a little extra for orange drops but didn't feel stretching any further was worthwhile.  

     

    Similarly my experience with pickups is that I don't need to pay big bucks, but I am more likely to get the sound I want, along with a better service, if I do.

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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    I think there's a lot of words being banded around that it'd be useful to clear up.

    Luxury - if it doesn't purify water, cure disease, catch food, wipe your arse or provide shelter ... it's luxury, every pickup ever made is luxury, the wire is too thin for fishing or snares..

    High-End doesn't just mean sound-quality, it means robustness, ease of repair, adaptation, bespoke settings, amount of care and understanding AND availabilty of the maker to answer questions and his expertise... far-eastern aftersales is "buy another one".

    Boutique - means "small shop". We live in an age where apprenticeship has been eroded by CNC enabled machinery, where division of labour has reduced craftsmanship giving us affordable products, like Fender guitars, the downside is few people working on the line understand what they're making or how it interacts with the other components that make the whole. Mass Production focusses on the efficiency of the process, boutique focusses on the finished product.

    Money - people seem to believe money is linked to morality, an excess of one leads to a dirth in the other, well it's not that simple, Cornford amps cost too much when exported to the states because of the exchange rate, UK made stuff costs more because the cost of living is higher, materials may be expensive - in some cases EU made pedals can't use certain components because of laws on the composition.

    Money - part 2, people think that something that costs more should be proveably better than something that costs less... or else what's the point? There are loads of measures of value and everyone rates them subjectively and differently - which is great, you might think it's worth something someone else might not and you're both right, and that doesn't lessen either opinion.

    Emperor's New Clothes - this phrase is a curse upon anyone who utters it. There is something supposedly novel and different but you believe that to be false, the maker to be cynically exploiting, it's fans to be sychophants too concerned with social acceptance to be authentic - pretty elaborate set of presumptions non?  How will you ever find your own place if you've such a well-crafted shortcut to ignorance? How will you find friends when you see idiots?

    I am now seriously weighing up whether to replace the neck pickup in my tokai es-120 or splash on a new set of pickups for my bass vi
    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16543
    mike_l said:

    I find (at least to my ear) that different makers have their own sound.

    I've always liked DiMarzio's, but (usually) find Duncans a bit meh (even though I have a Duncan in my Jackson)

    I used Dimarzios for a while and they were generally fine, but I never really loved them till I got my hands on an original square footed set.   the square feet make zero difference to the sound ;)

    I also found duncans a bit underwhelming until I tried some antiquities

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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    WezV said:
    mike_l said:

    I find (at least to my ear) that different makers have their own sound.

    I've always liked DiMarzio's, but (usually) find Duncans a bit meh (even though I have a Duncan in my Jackson)

    I used Dimarzios for a while and they were generally fine, but I never really loved them till I got my hands on an original square footed set.   the square feet make zero difference to the sound ;)

    I also found duncans a bit underwhelming until I tried some antiquities

    I've not tried antiquities, though, and I'm going on a small selection, in a small number of guitars. I have DiMarzio's in 3 guitars, and all have a fantastic tone which I love.

    I've tried a PearlyGates set, which really underwhelmed me, and I didn't like at all (for me). I can understand that a lot of players will, and do, love that sound, it just wasn't "me".

    I have a Duncan Distortion in the neck position of my Jackson, set quite far from the strings, which has an awesome sound, any closer though, and it's just a muddy mess. The Distortion is balanced with a Bulldog Extremist which has a lovely clear, punchy tone which is (IMO) perfect for riffing and high-gain leads.

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • imaloneimalone Frets: 748
    WezV said:
    WezV said:
    I am happy for anyone who cant hear the difference.

    I used to use cheap pickups for budget reasons, and I still do fit them quite often.

    Just over 10 years ago I brought one BKP-91 for £70 to see what all the fuss was about. It was my first time using a "boutique" pickup brand that made standard designs. It was so good I stuck with them for most of the years after that.

    I have also used bulldog, catswhisker and recently ASL. And been happy with them all. I still have bulldogs , bkp's and Asl in my personal guitars.

    I have also used iron gear, tonerider, warmans and a few other budget brands I forget. Some have been good and I have been happy to fit them. But most are not for me.

    I have only had one bkp set that I didn't like and that was more my mistake for choosing badly. They found a new home in a guitar they suit much better, which I still have


    I got a lol for that, but can't see a psot where someone clarifies what exactly is funny about it?  Guess it must be a random click


    Thought it was a bit weird, but could even be the "I am happy for anyone who cant hear the difference." is mildly amusing. Wouldn't waste time worrying about it.

    frankus said:
    I think there's a lot of words being banded around that it'd be useful to clear up.

    Luxury - if it doesn't purify water, cure disease, catch food, wipe your arse or provide shelter ... it's luxury, every pickup ever made is luxury, the wire is too thin for fishing or snares..

    Of course it may make a difference to someone who plays for a living. Or runs a studio and provides instruments as part of their business.

    frankus said:
    Emperor's New Clothes - this phrase is a curse upon anyone who utters it. There is something supposedly novel and different but you believe that to be false, the maker to be cynically exploiting, it's fans to be sychophants too concerned with social acceptance to be authentic - pretty elaborate set of presumptions non?  How will you ever find your own place if you've such a well-crafted shortcut to ignorance? How will you find friends when you see idiots?
    And sometimes it's a way of saying I'm not going to waste time looking into something which is pretty obviously rubbish. See the superfuses thread.
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  • I guess I thought "luxury" could be relative - a hand made option versus mass produced, with one being more luxurious to own than the other.

    I still think my post stands, mind. I'd rather have that, even if it means saving up a bit longer :)
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9983
    tFB Trader
    imalone said:
    hobbio said:

    I am sure with the right rumours, talk of a year long waiting list you could 1000$ + for PAF's clones in the US. :-)


    Made in the same way with the same materials as OCP stuff :D

    People will unfortunately pay a premium for bullshit.
    There are some of these people who are getting their magnets made to their own recipes, not sure if OCP does that or not.
    99% of pickups magnets are made in the same two or three factories these days. No need to guess where!
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71957
    Interestingly, I much prefer Duncans to DiMarzios - I like most Duncans (though not all) and find most DiMarzios a bit meh! With the exception of the old ones, which do genuinely sound different.

    It can be guitar-dependent though - I once took a set of DiMarzios out of a MusicMan, in which they sounded bland and ordinary, and put them in a PRS for no other reason than they were zebra coils with reverse magnetic polarity... and they sounded great.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • WolfetoneWolfetone Frets: 1479
    What CNC can't replicate is the changes to tension that a hand winder uses to put extra 'air' into a coil, 

    Then surely there would be a risk of some pickups being good and others less than good?
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  • rossirossi Frets: 1699
    edited December 2014
    Wolfetone said:
    What CNC can't replicate is the changes to tension that a hand winder uses to put extra 'air' into a coil, 

    "Then surely there would be a risk of some pickups being good and others less than good?"
    It certainly does .i worked in a coil winding shop for about 7 years in the 60's and  handwound was no way to make precise accurate spot on coils ,Machines were used  all the time where it was possible .Even on machines there was usually at least 10% plus or minus spec even 20% sometimes .There is always a certain amount of tollerance on any coil and I doubt pickups are any different .It will bethe difference between  some going  " meh" and others "fantastic".We once had to wind  coils to absolute spot on spec once and even after completely overhauling a turret winder and  investing a lot of time in  wire and tensioner specs and such like  we still had to chuck out most and keep the good ones .The spec was later found to be impossible to obtain and lowered by the design engineers ,probably on orders from above like "sort the effin thing out ....NOW".So I am deeply sceptical about claims of any coil winder and the fact that some love the greats and some the lessors speaks volumes that our ears are probably no more accurate than our  old coil winding machines.

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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9983
    tFB Trader
    rossi said:
    Wolfetone said:
    What CNC can't replicate is the changes to tension that a hand winder uses to put extra 'air' into a coil, 

    "Then surely there would be a risk of some pickups being good and others less than good?"
    It certainly does .i worked in a coil winding shop for about 7 years in the 60's and  handwound was no way to make precise accurate spot on coils ,Machines were used  all the time where it was possible .Even on machines there was usually at least 10% plus or minus spec even 20% sometimes .There is always a certain amount of tollerance on any coil and I doubt pickups are any different .It will bethe difference between  some going  " meh" and others "fantastic".We once had to wind  coils to absolute spot on spec once and even after completely overhauling a turret winder and  investing a lot of time in  wire and tensioner specs and such like  we still had to chuck out most and keep the good ones .The spec was later found to be impossible to obtain and lowered by the design engineers ,probably on orders from above like "sort the effin thing out ....NOW".So I am deeply sceptical about claims of any coil winder and the fact that some love the greats and some the lessors speaks volumes that our ears are probably no more accurate than our  old coil winding machines.

    I take it you wound transformers, they require spot on and accurate coils. Pickups do not. 
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • SNAKEBITESNAKEBITE Frets: 1075
    Jeremiah said:

    Also, weren't the winding machines used by Gibson in the 50s a bit old and worn out and so tended to produce some randomness and "scatter" winding unintentionally, leading to unpredictable variations in the sound.

    I would love this to be true.

    This would mean that every guitar would be (more?) unique, and would mean that you get to choose your special guitar. A romantic notion, but I'm a sucker for that.

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