Diminished Scales ? (Head Hurts) !

Bellycaster

Would much appreciate some help with this please.

I've been delving into more theory this week and I've reached saturation point (not Joe Saturation, I might add).

I was looking for a scale that matched a Half Dim Chord (m7 b5) and found that Lydian Dominant contains those intervals. Don't ask why I do this to myself, I just like theory knowledge for knowledge sake, it interests me and it's probably for further down the road but I can't help myself.

I then looked at the other Dim Chords

Dim 1 - b3 - b5

Dim 7  1 - b3 - b5 - bb7

I came completely undone in trying to understand the Diminished Scale and whether both the Dim and Dim 7 fitted the scale. It was like the guitar equivalent of Snow Blindness.

I know I seem to have an obsession with scale patterns and half the time a couple of notes will suffice over a chord if it's going to change soon, but it seems to create "maps" for me.

As for Augmented Chords, I think I surmised that the Natural Minor scale contains those intervals. 1 - 3 - #5 (6)?

I've no probs playing the chords I can find those easy enough, it's just finding little patterns to play over them.

I'm OK with having something to use over the types of 7, 9, 11 and 13 chords, just puzzled a bit with the others.

If your head is now hurting, I'm not surprised.

Thanks for any help.

;-)

Phil_aka_Pip

The Locrian scale matches the half diminished chord. I'm not sure about the Lydian dominant because the half diminished chord contains a b3 whereas the Lydian scale contains a major third.

The 7th mode of the Harmonic minor scale matches the diminished 7th chord.

I don't think the Natural minor (R 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7) matches the Augmented chord because although you can rewrite a #5 as a b6, the scale contains a minor 3rd and the chord contains a major 3rd. You probably get the Augmented chord from another mode of the harmonic minor scale but ATM I can't remember which one it is. Taking the HM modes and working it out is left as an exercise to the reader

Jalapeno

Diminished scale - every tone is potentially a root - start wherever you like and that is the root.  Sprinkle liberally on Dom7 chords and sound like a cool cat

Bellycaster

@Phil_aka_Pip

Thanks , that is a glaring error by me. I should have spotted that re the Minor and Aug M3 and m3rd's issue and the Lydian Dom.

Locrian makes sense now for m7b5 as it's the last chord in the diatonic sequence before the octave. I'll have to stop thinking of the Parent Maj Scale and start remembering to think of the mode as the new root.

Do you think there it's daft to want to try and expand theory knowledge to stuff I might not use a lot?

@Jalapeno

Thanks, I understand that concept with the Dim7 Chords all being potential roots. I just couldn't find a definitive scale diagram, I may not have looked far as my head had almost gone at the time.

Phil_aka_Pip

@Bellycaster no its NOT daft, and you'll probably find a use for it. Until then, the exercise of getting your fingers to do something different will be good for you

frankus

Here's the Wayne Krantz approach - play the chord on a looper/ tape recorder - now jam over the f*cker and take notes of the notes that sound good/better - put the notes together in order from the root note of the chord - that's your "function" or a selection of notes you like hearing (a far more worthy concept).

In this way you learn music and to improvise. Frequently revisit it as your tastes will change.

Here is the Pat Martino approach - learn the diminished chords and scales all over the neck - they're symetrical so more reuseable - learn each voicings implementations (repeated every over tone) and learn to sharpen and flatten stuff to make all the other chords.

Here is the Joe Pass approach - it's a minor chord with a major 6th - play as if you were playing over a II chord (so dorian mode) but avoid the 5th until it resolves..

Here's the Jimmy Bruno approach - shut the f*** up and figure out the notes that sound good - call it a scale and I'll come over there and mess you up - I ain't f***ing around - they're note choices and don't ever let me hear you callin' it a scale.

The Emily Remler approach is either use it with the melodic minor a fifth above the chord root or a semitone below the chord root, depending on whether it's followed by a major chord or not.

My take on it is this... Miles says "play what noone else is playing" so in the case of a disonnant chord - there's a need for playing consonant sounds, so the Joe Pass approach is a goodun.

Bellycaster

@frankus

That one deserves a Lol and a Wiz but it would only let me choose one.

Good advice.

Ta!

octatonic

Locrian is *mostly useless* imho.

I use diminished scale ideas (often arpeggios) off the major 3rd of a dominant chord.

For instance; G7: GBDF

B diminished 7th arpeggio: B D F Ab

As you can see, 3 of the notes to the B dim7 arpeggio are part of the G7 chord.

The Ab is the b9.

Megii

The 6th mode of the melodic minor scale (also known as the "Jazz Minor") is good for soloing over minor 7 flat 5 type chords.

Bellycaster

Thanks @octatonic, now realising what your username means ;-)

Cheers @Megii

octatonic

Bellycaster said:

Thanks @octatonic, now realising what your username means ;-)

FINALLY!

Barney

Bellycaster;2939" said:

I've no probs playing the chords I can find those easy enough, it's just finding little patterns to play over them)

Your most of the way there then I think ....try playing the chords and just break them into individual notes And patterns you like ...however a chord moves and sounds so will the notes of the chord...this applies to any chord or progression ...just play the chords then arpegiate it...that's why I always think a good foundation of chords is the first port of call ..so when you look at the chords and chord movements you can just the notes out of the chords..

Jalapeno

IMHO the Dim scale sounds quite atonal and sterile. and downright wrong (over Dom7 chords).  It needs to be spiced up with chromatic/outside (or Dom7 arpeggio) notes to sound interesting.  It demands a good resolution to a 3/7/root to not sound like the "wrong notes"

stuglue

As regards the m7b5 chord, try adding a note to it a major third below the root, hey Presto you've got yourself a dominant 9th chord, so that B,D,F,A chord becomes G,B,D,F,A so the two are interchangeable in that they share the same qualities.

The diminished scale is based around minor third intervals and the symmetrical nature is how it's created, which is Half Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step etc you'll find its full of tritone intervals hence the symmetry (a tritone shape is the only interval aside from an octave that shape wise is the same whether you play it from the root or invert it and play it from the b5th), it still retains the same shape.

as for augmented you'll find that chord comes from the melodic minor scale 

viz

Just for reference, here are all the octatonic scales with minor 3rd as the maximum note separation. You will find all the dims in there somewhere! http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/MusicalmodesbyViz6_zps15fcbf56.jpg

stuglue

Whoa, what's this, carpet samples?

Bellycaster

viz;44537" said:

Just for reference, here are all the octatonic scales with minor 3rd as the maximum note separation. You will find all the dims in there somewhere!

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/MusicalmodesbyViz6_zps15fcbf56.jpg

Cheers @viz

I think I just went blind

viz

I know what you mean, I also find it somewhat stimulating.

Phil_aka_Pip

Just looked it up: you get the Augmented 7th chord from harmonising the 3rd degree of the harmonic minor scale, and also from the same degree of the melodic minor scale

frankus

As someone who plays Jazz that has a fair few interesting chords often used in the same bar - I am a bit indifferent to modes - they cannot be extemporised quick enough to be of use in anything but modal jazz. What's going to sound okay over a bar (if I've never seen it before) is the chord tones of the two chords - if there are duplicates then that means I've a degree of liberty to explore the missing information.

G7 -> A7 => G B D F -> A C# E G  all told ( G A B C# D E F ) - I knew 2 dominants a tone apart = melodic minor mode but rather than think of that utterly redundant name (why learn hundreds?) - I think of the contents .. just playing the notes of the second dominant chord over the first gives a nice sound .. that'll become more familiar over the second chord -- repetition, resolution -- woo scary it'd sound.. planned, anticipated.

I think there is far more worth to be found in small tactics than there is boiling the ocean to find strategies - you'll find billions of strategies and names for them and by the time you've finished filing them you'll have arthritis and be deaf

There are only ever 12 notes, there are only really 3 types of chord: major minor and dominant - it's far far easier to learn the sounds of those 12 notes over those 3 types of chord - 36 combinations - than it is to learn exactly the same thing in bunches of eight (7,6 or 5) notes remembering it's thing (mode) of another thing (scale).

When you're playing over an unfamiliar piece of music sounds are your friends - not names. With a name you pick it... then scratch around trying to locate the root note then you can start playing the patter for that name... in jazz that's too late the music has moved so the tactics for finding a note have to be more immediate. I feel they're more honset and the results are more musical.

midiglitch

Wise words Frankus. Very wise words