Help to break away from pure pentatonics

benvall

There is a youtube video by Pete Thorn I think it is called adding colour and tone 5 min lessons (something like that). I'm at work with no speakers on my PC so I can't check it is the correct one. It's worth a watch.

Blueingreen

The  modes can be viewed as a pentatonic with two new notes added in.  Imagine you are playing in A and using the minor pentatonic, standard 5th position pattern, top 4 strings.  So you have A,C,D,E,G. So play on top of a two chord vamp, Am and Dm (or Am7 and Dm7). You will find that you can add in B and F, both sound right and give you some new flavours. You're still using your basic pentatonic pattern, you're just adding in two new notes.

Change your two chord vamp to Am (or Am7)/D7. Again your standard pentatonic will work fine but now the two extra notes that sound consonant are B and F sharp.  

Just busk those patterns against those chords.  Give it several hours, until you are playing stuff that sounds good to your ear.  

Once you've done that you're on top of by far the two most common modes. Obviously you will want to take them into different positions and different keys, but you can always begin with a standard pentatonic pattern and add a couple of notes. You'll also come to realise that the two patterns are actually the same, just with a different implied starting point, which helps with fingerings.  And eventually the same fingering patterns will work for all the other modes of the major scale.

What you will also find is that in most places a pentatonic works,  especially outside of a blues, one of these patterns will work also.

jpfamps

My view on this is broadly in line with Octatonic; if you are not careful you can end up producing some very generic and quite boring to listen to scale-based soloing.

In fact I can here this going on at the club over the road from my workshop as I write this.

I've always thought that many guitarist's obsession with modes puzzling. Very little rock/ pop (or even jazz) music is actually modal. None of the horn players I play with (and these are all schooled musicians, mainly jazzers and often teachers as well), consider knowledge of modes that crucial.

Regardless, I tend to think of the pentatonic scales as the framework around which you can introduce the other notes.

I also like know how these notes relate harmonically to the underlying chords. I found this helps to allow me to learn what the other notes bring to my playing.

In the past I have often added the extra notes one at a time to my lead playing, which reduces the amount of sonic information you need to assimilate.

So for example take Ain't No Sunshine (in Amin), then try adding a B natural to the Am pentatonic. This is the 2nd/9th of Am, the 5th of Eminor and the Major 6th of Dm.

Jam with this and find out how this extra note works over the progress.

You can do this with all the other notes. Obviously some of them will be hideous (eg C# probably won't sound great unless used as a passing note), but you should quickly find out the notes you prefer the sound of.

Personnally on Ain't No Sunshine I tend embelish the Amin pentatonic with the 2nd/9th (B), and the b5 (Eb) to the minor pentatonic. 

The key (at least for me) is to try to play lines that I like the sound of (otherwise what's the point in playing!).

jpfamps

I should add, I don't the sound of F# in single lines when playing Ain't No Sunshine, so I am probably not a Dorian noodler!

ToneControl

I haven't studied the theory above, I will start now though,
but... a good example "by ear" is these 2 contrasting versions - Bill Withers and Eva Cassidy. The second has a different mood and feels a bit harmonic minor in places at the end of the main phrase. Sorry, I don't have the vocabulary to say what is happening, but it certainly gets away from plain pentatonic

viz

Yes. Bill's is strictly Aeolian - natural minor - with minor chords with minor 7ths throughout. Eva's (which is transposed to C minor) has, for its last chord before returning to the C root, a G with a strongly sounding major 3rd and minor 6th, which in the key of C minor are the major 7tha and minor 3rd, 2 of the most important notes in C harmonic minor.

ToneControl

thanks for that, I've been avoiding theory for years, I will start trying to learn more now

mike257

Tons of interesting stuff in here, I'll have to try some. I'm very much with Octatonic on this though:

octatonic;46560" said:

Start targeting chord tones and use chromatic ideas.Think melody- if you can't hum it, don't play it

My favourite bits of lead guitar playing are always the ones with a singable melody, not ones with a technical leaning.

AndyJP

I quite like playing Pentatonics with some additional notes from the modes to spice it up. For example putting a major sixth into a minor pentatonic to give a Dorian flavour without screaming "I'm playing Dorian now!". The infinite guitar website has some good articles in this. Over some chord progressions mixing major and minor Pentatonics works really well too. that's my 2p....

Kebabkid

What Octatonic said ^ ^ ^ "being able to sing it/being melodic.
Here's my 2 drachma's worth - have a listen to players like Robben Ford and Larry Carlton for adding interesting and different notes to lines whilst still retaining melody. Slow, wide/over bends, slurs into notes also add something

pickerg

Great thread, some great advice with hours of material.  I'll echo what has already been said by a few people: what has really started to work for me is to think in chords rather than scales.  Spend some time targeting chord notes, using chord positions close to each other for each chord - this gets you used to all the different shapes rather than just relying on your most comfortable ones. 

Once you can do this then I would start looking at adding some of the extra notes, or using tones from some of the more exotic scales mentioned.

 

frankus

AndyJP said:

I quite like playing Pentatonics with some additional notes from the modes to spice it up. For example putting a major sixth into a minor pentatonic to give a Dorian flavour without screaming "I'm playing Dorian now!". The infinite guitar website has some good articles in this. Over some chord progressions mixing major and minor Pentatonics works really well too. that's my 2p....

Thing is the 4th (all that's different between a dorian and pentatonic minor + major 6th) isn't going to make people believe they're hearing dorian and not pentatonic.

Pentatonics are really a fingering pattern that simply avoids semitone clashes. Move it a semitone down and it'll still have some sort of musical context - by virtue of it's structure.

Minor 3rd, Major 6th and b7th gives any listener enough information to know they're hearing a dorian ... doesn't matter if you're playing pentatonic with an added 6th or apreggiating a Dm7 and an Em triad, or playing F lydian over a D minor chord - the sound is dorian.

JAYJO

Does anyone need to know whether its Dorian or not.? idk.

 I use the pentatonics as a crutch. Though im now starting to think of melody more than shapes.  playing over tracks (any from radio etc) I quickly find the key and soon enough im moving through pentatonic shapes.eventually adding a note or two that sound good. By now im not thinking shapes just melody and i find i can play more relaxed and with a lot more ease, its a bit odd really ,im almost playing what im thinking i want to play (sound wise not intervalically) but not always.

 Am i in a different mode from time to time ? probably ,which one ? idk. But my playing has improved and im happy. Now playing in a band, maybe thats when it becomes more of an issue im not sure. 

frankus

JAYJO said:

Does anyone need to know whether its Dorian or not.? idk.

It's not a case of needing to know, the dorian has a sense of gravitas without being as maudlin as the aeolian... in mainstream music the modes are cues to the emotional weight of a phrase.

People don't need to know if it's dorian, aeolian or phrygian but the note selection will convey a feeling - maybe serious, or sad or distraught or maybe a subtle mix of all of those.

Music is a language, it communicates emotions, elements of music are used in every language - babies cry at different pitches to indicate different needs - same shit simply expressed in a scale - we've an interuptive cadence, we've disonnance and consonance - public speakers use all the time to get the audience to listen to keywords.

If you don't need to convey a feeling it doesn't matter what notes you play, what speed or dynamics.

I am split - patterns are definitely a good way to navigate the fretboard - but equally they're a poor way to originate.

ThePrettyDamned

I mostly don't bother with modal stuff (although phrygian naturally features as my music is fairly heavy and that flat second seems to feature a fair bit in the riff).  However, I have found a few things that are amazing as getting a 'pro' sound.

1.  Learn the full, standard minor scale as well as the pentatonic.  You'll mostly use the pentatonic (with all the usual caveats of melody and stuff). 

2.  semitone bends.  In e minor, for example, bend from the f sharp to a g or from the c to b.  Also, these work in reverse - pre bend up to a c of g, then slowly (slower the better) release to the target pentatonic note to land on it on the beat.  It's a very simple thing to do, but I find that bending from a B to a C at the beginning of a phrase evokes a really sweet sound.  Tone bends don't have this effect as both notes are in the pentatonic.  

3.  Space.  Don't think about using a mode to connect loads of notes - this isn't shred or jazz (god knows how I dislike jazz... Most of it just sounds wrong to my overconditioned ears!).  Instead, use an effect, such as delay or reverb to help make it sound less 'empty' when practicing (might matter less in a band scenario, but can work then, too!) and after a short phrase, or even a long one (I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know...etc makes for something you can use on the guitar, and occasionally throw in another note), leave a pause.  A long phrase is good for playing very gentle, and really digging in for a screaming 'Ain't no sunshine' line.  Bend up to that 'shine' syllable for full vocal effect?

viz

frankus said:

JAYJO said:

Does anyone need to know whether its Dorian or not.? idk.

It's not a case of needing to know, the dorian has a sense of gravitas without being as maudlin as the aeolian... in mainstream music the modes are cues to the emotional weight of a phrase.

People don't need to know if it's dorian, aeolian or phrygian but the note selection will convey a feeling - maybe serious, or sad or distraught or maybe a subtle mix of all of those.

Music is a language, it communicates emotions, elements of music are used in every language - babies cry at different pitches to indicate different needs - same shit simply expressed in a scale - we've an interuptive cadence, we've disonnance and consonance - public speakers use all the time to get the audience to listen to keywords.

If you don't need to convey a feeling it doesn't matter what notes you play, what speed or dynamics.

I am split - patterns are definitely a good way to navigate the fretboard - but equally they're a poor way to originate.

wonderfully put as always frankus. By the way all, the minor 3rd, sharp 6 and matural 7 could also be the awesome 2nd mode of the melodic minor scale, the sweet dorian b2, or "phrygian-dorian", which sounds lovely.

frankus

viz said:

wonderfully put as always frankus. By the way all, the minor 3rd, sharp 6 and matural 7 could also be the awesome 2nd mode of the melodic minor scale, the sweet dorian b2, or "phrygian-dorian", which sounds lovely.

Yes, but cultural norms mean that's not the first thing people expect. This is what solo and improvisation is about for me - it's about finding new and interesting routes through a piece of music... the significance of the b9 will change over the next chord and may become consonant.

For me music is all about timing. We can play a b9 any time in any piece of music. We have chromaticism all the time, it's just that as people we might need to view it through the filter of modes and scales to keep all that information in our heads.

viz

Yep.

frankus

Only thing I'd refine about that is "we can play a b9 in any bar of a piece of music - there are beats we would prefer not to play it on "

viz

Not me, I'll put it anywhere and anywhen!