Jazz Stuff (the thread formerly known as "Just ordered some jazz guitar books...")

Megii

Have been feeling the need for some new approaches/ideas/materials to inject a bit of life into my playing - some fresh stuff to get my teeth into. Anyway just invested in these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Guitar-Comping-Raising-Awareness/dp/0970057644/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422473782&sr=8-1&keywords=andrew+green+jazz+guitar

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Guitar-Technique-Breaking-Barrier/dp/097005761X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1422473782&sr=8-2&keywords=andrew+green+jazz+guitar

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Guitar-Structures-Boosting-Power/dp/0970057601/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1422473782&sr=8-3&keywords=andrew+green+jazz+guitar

They seem to get good reviews, and looked like good stuff from what I could see in the previews. And then I thought I'd just throw in one of these, since quite cheap:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Licks-Complete-Vocabulary-Improvising-Musici/dp/1575602784/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422473942&sr=1-1&keywords=1001+jazz+licks

And finally tacked onto the order a cheap second-hand copy of this one (less than £3 posted, so what the heck):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bebop-Licks-Guitar-REH-Pro/dp/0634033557/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422474041&sr=1-2&keywords=bebop+jazz+licks

Hope I did OK with these choices, interested to hear from anyone who's already got any of them. Plenty of other books I could easily have found a place for, but one has to stop somewhere...

Jalapeno

Found the Andrew Green ones hard going without tab.

The last one, Les Wise's book I love, it's is really useful to dip into, cop a lick, adapt it and then work it into your trick bag.

Only other advice I'd give is to steer clear of anything blathering on about modes (esp. modes of Melodic Minor). 

Megii

Jalapeno said:

The last one is really useful to dip into, cop a lick, adapt it and then work it into your trick bag

Yep - for a long time, I was a bit anti the lick approach, but in recent years, I've come to realise I'd effectively developed a whole bag of licks of my own anyway, just from noodling and playing jazz with bands (or trying to). So now I'm really into learning licks - a lot to be said for just saying "I like this line, so I'll learn how to play it" - doesn't have to be any more complicated than that really.

Les Wise seems like a great guy and teacher also - not much from him on YouTube, but I like this for example:

I still have a copy of the GIT book "Ten" which has a chapter by him, must dig that out...

Jalapeno

<grinds teeth>  this melodic minor scale mumbo jumbo gets my goat, it over complicates things greatly.  It's a guitar FINGERING device, not musical theory. Trying to remember that Gm means play Bb Melodic Minor is bad - you have to memorise crap like this and it's really difficult to just pull out on demand - by the time you remember and apply it - the chord sequence has moved on. He can talk in these terms because his ear pulls him to play it with all the b5, #5, b9, #9, betcha he didn't learn it that way.

If you stick the the chord arpeggios (even just triads), and Maj/Min251 progressions/licks you're on safe ground, then you can look at the altered notes (or not).

Megii

Jalapeno said:

<grinds teeth>  this melodic minor scale mumbo jumbo gets my goat, it over complicates things greatly.  It's a guitar FINGERING device, not musical theory. Trying to remember that Gm means play Bb Melodic Minor is bad - you have to memorise crap like this and it's really difficult to just pull out on demand - by the time you remember and apply it - the chord sequence has moved on. He can talk in these terms because his ear pulls him to play it with all the b5, #5, b9, #9

If you stick the the chord arpeggios (even just triads), and Maj/Min251 progressions/licks you're on safe ground, then you can look at the altered notes (or not).

Fair enough - I rather like that melodic minor kind of stuff - I guess it works for some people and not others maybe. Ages ago I worked from the two videos Emily Remler made, and she was big on using melodic minor over dominant chords. Although I would admit that I do tend to think more in terms of modes of the melodic minor, going from the root of the chord, rather than the transposing thing. I think in the end you're right about the fingering device point really - one has to be able to zip straight to where the desired notes are, in relation to the chord/root note being played over. Maybe it all amounts to the same thing in the end?

bingefeller

Megii the lessons on mikesmasterclass.com by Tom Lippincott are good. I have the modern jazz improv pt ii one and it's great. ,I would recommend the, if you're after more jazz learning ,arterial. http://www.mikesmasterclasses.com/index.php/Masters/Description/Tom-Lippincott.html

Megii

bingefeller said:

Megii the lessons on mikesmasterclass.com by Tom Lippincott are good. I have the modern jazz improv pt ii one and it's great. ,I would recommend the, if you're after more jazz learning ,arterial. http://www.mikesmasterclasses.com/index.php/Masters/Description/Tom-Lippincott.html

Chap who plays an 8 string fan-fret guitar? - I was watching him only the other day on Youtube, a monster player. Cheers for the recommendation anyhow.

Jalapeno

Megii said:

Jalapeno said:

<grinds teeth>  this melodic minor scale mumbo jumbo gets my goat, it over complicates things greatly.  It's a guitar FINGERING device, not musical theory. Trying to remember that Gm means play Bb Melodic Minor is bad - you have to memorise crap like this and it's really difficult to just pull out on demand - by the time you remember and apply it - the chord sequence has moved on. He can talk in these terms because his ear pulls him to play it with all the b5, #5, b9, #9

If you stick the the chord arpeggios (even just triads), and Maj/Min251 progressions/licks you're on safe ground, then you can look at the altered notes (or not).

Fair enough - I rather like that melodic minor kind of stuff - I guess it works for some people and not others maybe. Ages ago I worked from the two videos Emily Remler made, and she was big on using melodic minor over dominant chords. Although I would admit that I do tend to think more in terms of modes of the melodic minor, going from the root of the chord, rather than the transposing thing. I think in the end you're right about the fingering device point really - one has to be able to zip straight to where the desired notes are, in relation to the chord/root note being played over. Maybe it all amounts to the same thing in the end?

Oh agreed, but it's all seems like counter intuitive and memorising arbitrary rules - it ought to be about teaching your ear (but I'm indoctrinated by Jimmy Bruno so take my ranting with a pinch of salt too ! ) - I followed both the original ArtistWorks and now independent Jimmy Bruno sites, and he's asked Howard Alden and a bunch of others, on film, if they learned using scales/modes, and pretty much everyone he's interviewed has said no. Carol Kaye has said similar about people who follow scales rather than arpeggios. In a moment of weakness JB has said that this isn't an argument for ignorance - you ultimately have to learn how to interact with other musicians and composers/

Blueingreen

I have two of the Andrew Green books (comping and technique).  Regretfully I'd have to say I'm a bit unconvinced by their usefulness unless you're a pretty advanced jazz player already (which I'm not).  

For comping the books I've found useful are the ones in the Aebersold series by Mike Di Liddo and Barry Galbraith.  Once I've mastered those I'll be ready to move on to the Andrew Green.

The most notorious feature of the technique book is Green's insistence on an unorthodox fingering system in which you don't use the same finger to finger adjacent strings on the same fret.  It leads to some pretty contorted fingering.  I admit I was intrigued by this and have worked with it a bit, because I have some arthritis issues and I thought it might help.

The problem is it's hard to find evidence that this system has been successfully adopted by other players (although I gather Green himself is a great player).  You'd need to put in a lot of hours to switch from an orthodox fingering system to his and to be honest it would be blind faith in view of the lack of evidence that it can work well for players other than Green.

viz

I love the super locrian over the V chord - it's been a complete revelation to me and really easy to sync to on the fly. There's lots of little tricks to make it easy.

bigjon

The Les Wise Bebop licks book is a really good resource, although I've only scratched the surface of it.

bigjon

viz said:

I love the super locrian over the V chord - it's been a complete revelation to me and really easy to synch to on the fly. There's lots of little tricks to make it easy.

Reminds me of this exchange from

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/945/ii-v-i-something-to-try-over-the-v-chord/p1

bigjon said:

Barney said:

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

First one is at 0:10 - 

bigjon said:

 try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------

----------------------16---13-----------------------

-----------------------------------16---15---13---

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

Second one is at 0:18 - 

bigjon said:

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

--------------

--------------

--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I shift that lick up a minor 3rd to illustrate the next point at 0:26 - 

bigjon said:

Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

viz

Exactly. I remember that!

Megii

Jalapeno said:

Megii said:

Jalapeno said:

<grinds teeth>  this melodic minor scale mumbo jumbo gets my goat, it over complicates things greatly.  It's a guitar FINGERING device, not musical theory. Trying to remember that Gm means play Bb Melodic Minor is bad - you have to memorise crap like this and it's really difficult to just pull out on demand - by the time you remember and apply it - the chord sequence has moved on. He can talk in these terms because his ear pulls him to play it with all the b5, #5, b9, #9

If you stick the the chord arpeggios (even just triads), and Maj/Min251 progressions/licks you're on safe ground, then you can look at the altered notes (or not).

Fair enough - I rather like that melodic minor kind of stuff - I guess it works for some people and not others maybe. Ages ago I worked from the two videos Emily Remler made, and she was big on using melodic minor over dominant chords. Although I would admit that I do tend to think more in terms of modes of the melodic minor, going from the root of the chord, rather than the transposing thing. I think in the end you're right about the fingering device point really - one has to be able to zip straight to where the desired notes are, in relation to the chord/root note being played over. Maybe it all amounts to the same thing in the end?

Oh agreed, but it's all seems like counter intuitive and memorising arbitrary rules - it ought to be about teaching your ear (but I'm indoctrinated by Jimmy Bruno so take my ranting with a pinch of salt too ! ) - I followed both the original ArtistWorks and now independent Jimmy Bruno sites, and he's asked Howard Alden and a bunch of others, on film, if they learned using scales/modes, and pretty much everyone he's interviewed has said no. Carol Kaye has said similar about people who follow scales rather than arpeggios. In a moment of weakness JB has said that this isn't an argument for ignorance - you ultimately have to learn how to interact with other musicians and composers/

Couldn't agree more re "it ought to be about teaching your ear" - indeed it has to about that for me, I always say if you can't hear it, you can't play it. Not withstanding what you say re various pros not learning with scales, I do find they have some value. Also it's not an either or situation anyway - learning about scales does not preclude using arpeggios. And of course JB is absolutely correct that one does have to learn to interact with other musicians and composers...

Megii

Blueingreen said:

I have two of the Andrew Green books (comping and technique).  Regretfully I'd have to say I'm a bit unconvinced by their usefulness unless you're a pretty advanced jazz player already (which I'm not).  

For comping the books I've found useful are the ones in the Aebersold series by Mike Di Liddo and Barry Galbraith.  Once I've mastered those I'll be ready to move on to the Andrew Green.

The most notorious feature of the technique book is Green's insistence on an unorthodox fingering system in which you don't use the same finger to finger adjacent strings on the same fret.  It leads to some pretty contorted fingering.  I admit I was intrigued by this and have worked with it a bit, because I have some arthritis issues and I thought it might help.

The problem is it's hard to find evidence that this system has been successfully adopted by other players (although I gather Green himself is a great player).  You'd need to put in a lot of hours to switch from an orthodox fingering system to his and to be honest it would be blind faith in view of the lack of evidence that it can work well for players other than Green.

Does sound like you might have a point re the fingering system thing - maybe I'll work on the exercises and ideas, but keep my own way of fingering. I am I suppose looking for material aimed at a reasonably advanced level, without wishing to sound conceited - more looking for things to expand on what I already know, rather than learning from a basic level. Will see how I get on with the books anyhow.  

Megii

viz said:

I love the super locrian over the V chord - it's been a complete revelation to me and really easy to sync to on the fly. There's lots of little tricks to make it easy.

Me too - some years (decades eek) since I first came across the idea, which was Emily Remler saying "melodic/jazz minor up a half step " (calm down @Jalapeno ). That's great for V type chords, where they are resolving to a I chord. And the other one is Lydian Dominant over a dominant type chord that doesn't resolve in a V to I kind of way (aka melodic/jazz minor up a 5th). 

This was the video FWIW:

And this is the other one she made:

Only putting them up because they are such great videos really...

Megii

bigjon said:

The Les Wise Bebop licks book is a really good resource, although I've only scratched the surface of it.

Sounds like that one was £2.97 well spent!

Megii

bigjon said:

viz said:

I love the super locrian over the V chord - it's been a complete revelation to me and really easy to synch to on the fly. There's lots of little tricks to make it easy.

Reminds me of this exchange from

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/945/ii-v-i-something-to-try-over-the-v-chord/p1

bigjon said:

Barney said:

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

First one is at 0:10 - 

bigjon said:

 try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------

----------------------16---13-----------------------

-----------------------------------16---15---13---

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

Second one is at 0:18 - 

bigjon said:

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

--------------

--------------

--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I shift that lick up a minor 3rd to illustrate the next point at 0:26 - 

bigjon said:

Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

Nice post, cheers very much for this @bigjon

equalsql

Thanks for the links Megi. I've just grabbed myself a copy of the Bebop Licks book

Megii

equalsql said:

Thanks for the links Megi. I've just grabbed myself a copy of the Bebop Licks book

Nice one - hope we both like it!

Jalapeno

I do like Emily Remler's vids, her white bread analogy is good. 

I think you have to get Inside sounds nailed - be able to consciously do it - before going Outside or it's all too easy to just flap about randomly/blindly without control (or be able to apply taste).

I'm not there yet BTW ....