Bands and Deps

hotpickups

RocknRollDave said:

Of course, another spin on it for the OP would be that instead of doing all the running about and getting deps in, just jack the band in and set yourself up as a dep for other bands?

So weird cos that has been one of my thoughts too. 

EricTheWeary

I don't think I've ever played a gig where we could afford to pay one band member £150+ so this is out of my league!
In practice if you know other bands playing roughly the same set on roughly the same circuit then band members can become interchangeable to some extent. In my ska band there were about four bands doing similar things and in the end a reasonably paid gig would be one band name on the poster and the membership maybe just the singer from the actual band.

hotpickups

EricTheWeary said:

I don't think I've ever played a gig where we could afford to pay one band member £150+ so this is out of my league!
In practice if you know other bands playing roughly the same set on roughly the same circuit then band members can become interchangeable to some extent. In my ska band there were about four bands doing similar things and in the end a reasonably paid gig would be one band name on the poster and the membership maybe just the singer from the actual band.

Hmmm this is where I've come unstuck then. Our set is quite unique and tried from the start to veer away from the normal stuff bands play. Just to keep it interesting for the audience and us

John_P

hotpickups said:

EricTheWeary said:

I don't think I've ever played a gig where we could afford to pay one band member £150+ so this is out of my league!
In practice if you know other bands playing roughly the same set on roughly the same circuit then band members can become interchangeable to some extent. In my ska band there were about four bands doing similar things and in the end a reasonably paid gig would be one band name on the poster and the membership maybe just the singer from the actual band.

Hmmm this is where I've come unstuck then. Our set is quite unique and tried from the start to veer away from the normal stuff bands play. Just to keep it interesting for the audience and us

That would make it harder for dep players but doesn't have to be a big deal.

I'm in a similar position to spacecadet (although I charge a bit less).   I get gigs because I'll learn songs, be on time and help out.

I'm happy to just turn up and play -  but it's super easy if I get a set list in advance,  even better if it has the key and any arrangement notes.

Some bands like to rehearse and it's either because they are nervous - which I understand and go along to reassure them.  Some bands like a rehearsal to go through changes arrangements and that's helpful - sorting cues and medleys.

A good player won't be phased by these and a good band will be having lots of eye contact and subtle nods anyway.

I think this is more a questions about your band mates being lazy than a serious consideration of using dep players.   Deps gigs are great for keeping a band going when someone can't make a gig but you are probably better being upfront and saying it's not fair to the other guys if that's how you feel.   Then if they are open about not having the skills/time/bottle to book gigs etc then you know the score and can decide if they add enough value in other ways.  Sometimes people like organising everything - it can be simpler than the possible chaos of the others making a mess of it from over enthusiasm.

Danny1969

There's plenty of dep work around in the covers game, I've done everything from dep,ing in a local rock band for £50 to being paid £250 to go to London with some session guys and pretend to be a whole other band so the band who should have been there could go off and do another gig for a well heeled celebrity. There's also a couple of agencies who have a pool of dep players and you don't know who your gonna be playing with until you get there. When it's gigs that put the food on the table you just do what work there is. 

 

I've used loads of different drummers for dep gigs, £100 to £150 gets you a very tasty session quality drummer for a gig which is about right I think. I like to earn at least £100 per gig but if I'm not gigging and one comes up for £50 I will go and do it rather than sit at home and earn nothing !

Most of the work is easy as well .......... there most be loads of us on here all playing Sex on fire - Dekota - Brightside - Superstition - Parklife etc etc. It's only the starts and ends that might need a bit of nouse and eye contact the rest of it can be done on autopilot 

hotpickups

John_P said:

hotpickups said:

EricTheWeary said:

I don't think I've ever played a gig where we could afford to pay one band member £150+ so this is out of my league!
In practice if you know other bands playing roughly the same set on roughly the same circuit then band members can become interchangeable to some extent. In my ska band there were about four bands doing similar things and in the end a reasonably paid gig would be one band name on the poster and the membership maybe just the singer from the actual band.

Hmmm this is where I've come unstuck then. Our set is quite unique and tried from the start to veer away from the normal stuff bands play. Just to keep it interesting for the audience and us

That would make it harder for dep players but doesn't have to be a big deal.

I'm in a similar position to spacecadet (although I charge a bit less).   I get gigs because I'll learn songs, be on time and help out.

I'm happy to just turn up and play -  but it's super easy if I get a set list in advance,  even better if it has the key and any arrangement notes.

Some bands like to rehearse and it's either because they are nervous - which I understand and go along to reassure them.  Some bands like a rehearsal to go through changes arrangements and that's helpful - sorting cues and medleys.

A good player won't be phased by these and a good band will be having lots of eye contact and subtle nods anyway.

I think this is more a questions about your band mates being lazy than a serious consideration of using dep players.   Deps gigs are great for keeping a band going when someone can't make a gig but you are probably better being upfront and saying it's not fair to the other guys if that's how you feel.   Then if they are open about not having the skills/time/bottle to book gigs etc then you know the score and can decide if they add enough value in other ways.  Sometimes people like organising everything - it can be simpler than the possible chaos of the others making a mess of it from over enthusiasm.

Yes I agree. I think it's more to do with certain individuals confidence with knocking on doors and being lazy. I work for myself so I'm used to it I guess – knocking on doors I meant not being lazy . However, there is only so much I am willing to do when all I see and hear are their moans. I guess at the end of the day I all I want to do is play so maybe I'll make the band lay low for a while and play in another bands/dep in the meantime. If we get a booking from the merits of what I've already put in then I can reform the band for that event. Albeit with different members maybe. Starting to get clearer to me now. Thanks guys

hotpickups

Danny1969 said:

Sex on fire - Dekota - Brightside - Superstition - Parklife etc etc.

Noooooo. I'm gonna find it really hard to enjoy playing those with any conviction

Danny1969

hotpickups said:

Danny1969 said:

Sex on fire - Dekota - Brightside - Superstition - Parklife etc etc.

Noooooo. I'm gonna find it really hard to enjoy playing those with any conviction

Well there's a lot of crowd pleasing songs but those 5 always seem to get in there. Uptown Funk is popular at the mo now having shoved Happy and Up to get lucky off every corp bands setlist 

monquixote

The other side of the coin is that a lot of bands aren't very good to deps so if you are you become much more attractive for repeat custom.

I don't dep that often as I don't have the time anymore, but one of the bands I depped for recently gave me a list of about 50 songs and wouldn't commit to which ones were in the set until it was far too late to learn them properly and then forgot to tell me that some of them weren't in the original key, had different arrangements etc. I did a practice with them as they didn't have recordings of the changed tracks and the singer turned up really late and then whinged about how he was really busy and had to drive a long way.

They've asked me back a few times, but mostly I've declined as it's not worth the hassle.

How much I need to make it worthwhile depends on what I'm doing. For a pub type gig where I know all the standards anyway and just have to learn a couple I've not done before and I can turn up an hour before I play then £70 would be fine. If I'm doing a wedding, learning a bespoke set and having to travel and get there early I'd be more in the £150 + diesel side of things.

hotpickups

monquixote said:

The other side of the coin is that a lot of bands aren't very good to deps so if you are you become much more attractive for repeat custom.

I don't dep that often as I don't have the time anymore, but one of the bands I depped for recently gave me a list of about 50 songs and wouldn't commit to which ones were in the set until it was far too late to learn them properly and then forgot to tell me that some of them weren't in the original key, had different arrangements etc. I did a practice with them as they didn't have recordings of the changed tracks and the singer turned up really late and then whinged about how he was really busy and had to drive a long way.

They've asked me back a few times, but mostly I've declined as it's not worth the hassle.

How much I need to make it worthwhile depends on what I'm doing. For a pub type gig where I know all the standards anyway and just have to learn a couple I've not done before and I can turn up an hour before I play then £70 would be fine. If I'm doing a wedding, learning a bespoke set and having to travel and get there early I'd be more in the £150 + diesel side of things.

Well I would never act like that as a band leader thankfully. Once I'm committed I'm there all the way. Integrity is my middle name. Looks like there is a market for decent, committed, respectful guitarist deps then. I'm gonna look into it

ESBlonde

Many successful bands seem to have a leader and players, so think Alexis Korner, Keef, Chuck Berry, John Mayall, Mick Fleetwood etc. right up to Chris Martin.

Often these leaders are the reason for the band being driven and therefore successful sometimes beyond the talent that their contemporaries might have had.

Yes some talent and such is required but that organisational drive makes many bands stand out. If that man is you then you could call in the best musicians and have the best gigs and be the man (just like John Mayall). If people aren't prepared to work as hard as you pay them accordingly and move forward. It is a competitive business not a babysitting service.

hotpickups

ESBlonde said:

Many successful bands seem to have a leader and players, so think Alexis Korner, Keef, Chuck Berry, John Mayall, Mick Fleetwood etc. right up to Chris Martin.

Often these leaders are the reason for the band being driven and therefore successful sometimes beyond the talent that their contemporaries might have had.

Yes some talent and such is required but that organisational drive makes many bands stand out. If that man is you then you could call in the best musicians and have the best gigs and be the man (just like John Mayall). If people aren't prepared to work as hard as you pay them accordingly and move forward. It is a competitive business not a babysitting service.

So agree @ESBlonde. Yes that man is me I feel. I've got more drive than Lewis Hamilton but when I feel people are taking the piss I slow down

spacecadet

hotpickups said:

Thanks for the full response.I take it you are a guitarist of the 6 string kind? If you were a bassist for example I would happily taken your details right now Yes very happy to pay well for a good job done and being reliable. Especially like the helping out with the lifting etc seems to be a miss on occasions

6 string all the way for me pal. I could put you in touch with the go to bass player who works the same way as I do. Problem is he's Nottingham based which may cause a problem and he's booked up until sometime next year. Being in demand is a blessing and a curse!

hotpickups

spacecadet said:

hotpickups said:

Thanks for the full response.I take it you are a guitarist of the 6 string kind? If you were a bassist for example I would happily taken your details right now Yes very happy to pay well for a good job done and being reliable. Especially like the helping out with the lifting etc seems to be a miss on occasions

6 string all the way for me pal. I could put you in touch with the go to bass player who works the same way as I do. Problem is he's Nottingham based which may cause a problem and he's booked up until sometime next year. Being in demand is a blessing and a curse!

And I am about 300 miles away. Oh well if I get a gig up there I could get in contact with him

John_P

hotpickups said:

monquixote said:

The other side of the coin is that a lot of bands aren't very good to deps so if you are you become much more attractive for repeat custom.

I don't dep that often as I don't have the time anymore, but one of the bands I depped for recently gave me a list of about 50 songs and wouldn't commit to which ones were in the set until it was far too late to learn them properly and then forgot to tell me that some of them weren't in the original key, had different arrangements etc. I did a practice with them as they didn't have recordings of the changed tracks and the singer turned up really late and then whinged about how he was really busy and had to drive a long way.

They've asked me back a few times, but mostly I've declined as it's not worth the hassle.

How much I need to make it worthwhile depends on what I'm doing. For a pub type gig where I know all the standards anyway and just have to learn a couple I've not done before and I can turn up an hour before I play then £70 would be fine. If I'm doing a wedding, learning a bespoke set and having to travel and get there early I'd be more in the £150 + diesel side of things.

Well I would never act like that as a band leader thankfully. Once I'm committed I'm there all the way. Integrity is my middle name. Looks like there is a market for decent, committed, respectful guitarist deps then. I'm gonna look into it

The hard bit is that you play guitar so there are a lot of players but it sounds like you do the basics (on time, good gear, learn the songs etc)  so it's not hard to get a good reputation - if you can offer bass as well that helps.   One of the bands I dep with has two guitars and bass - I cover for all 3 so they keep ringing as it's easier than having several stand in players.

monquixote

I've had bands where I've done bass and guitar depping. 

There are a lot more bass gigs out there.

spacecadet

monquixote said:

I've had bands where I've done bass and guitar depping. 

There are a lot more bass gigs out there.

Tis true. We have 5 drummers available to call at any one time. Only 2 bass players. Seems to be harder to find a good bass player. That is someone who plays bass not 4 string guitar if you know what I mean!

Danny1969

I'm happy on guitar, bass, keys and engineering. I like mixing bands and I've done many a happy gig dep'ing for bands normal FOH guys. 

bigjon

monquixote said:

Thinking about it, I think @bigjon runs a band on this principle so he is probably the best person to comment.

Yup, just over a year ago I decided to run my own band and only play for other bands on a dep basis. The 'Jon Kingsman Band' gigs as a 3-piece (usually for pubs) or a 4-piece with keys (usually for functions) plus an equal cut for 'band expenses' ie me (although I've spent a lot more on PA gear etc than I've taken), and for the 'manager' = the person who gets the gig, liases with the venue, organises the publicity etc. If someone gets me a gig, they can be in the band! The line-up has ended up pretty stable so far, the bassist got me a gig so joined the band in April and he's done every gig since, about half of which he's booked himself. But if I book a £200 pub gig as a 3-piece, I take £120 and the bassist and drummer get £40 each.

I don't rehearse, just maintain a spreadsheet with Title, Key, Original Key, Chord sequences, structure, tempo, drumbeat, youtube link, links to me playing it where applicable. I send out a draft setlist 3 weeks before the gig and take suggestions, then finalise the setlist 2 weeks before. I add a set of about 10 'extras' including some easy encores, a smoochy slow one, Happy Birthday etc, which might get cut into the gig, and I'm pretty flexible about changing the order to suit the mood, so a setlist does not equal a promise!

I thoroughly recommend it - I gig as much as I want to and so far there hasn't been any shortage of varied opportunities to play. Obviously if you're not the frontman then this model would need to be tweaked somewhat. Ironically since I've been running this system I've done FAR more dep gigs than I used to before - it's a real momentum thing!

hotpickups

Just an update. I decided to dissolve the band this weekend. I realised with it's current band members it isn't going to change and I just feel knackered doing all the promotional stuff and organising etc. Going to rebuild the band in the future but having a well earned rest first. However, next time I'll make it quite clear what the new members are expected to do should they want to join from the outset

Thanks for all the advice